Yes, good.
Evidence of meeting #27 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #27 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
—which has very positive potential.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
There was also the discussion about the fact that there are no experts being brought into the consultations when discussing what's being done in schools. I think that a lot of times when we're dealing with these experts, they have dealt with the abuse outside, and so they do bring in a very effective part.
Was it the province that decided it this wasn't necessary or the schools when creating this legislation and who was going to be at the table to make this work?
4:05 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I can't speak for how Ontario decided to just refer the student groups as necessary parts of the policy development, so I can't answer that question. In our city, we rely heavily on those crisis centres to serve our students. Not only do they have 40 years of experience in dealing with sexual violence in Ottawa, but they also have a long history of dealing with our students, caring for our students, and supporting our students. I think there's some reciprocal relationship that we need to develop with those resources.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Bilan and Danika, thank you both for sharing your stories, and Danika for your very personal story as well.
Within your own communities and within your own schools, we talk about what they're doing and where you recognize it in many schools. What are some of the best practices that are being done? Within your own schools, do you feel comfortable that the resources are there for the young women who have been part of the violence? Do you believe that the education for young men, who are now going off to school for the first time and leaving their parents who have always set the rules for them, is adequate? Sometimes, I think, it may also be a situation where there are no rules, so all of a sudden they start drinking more, and they start doing things that they usually wouldn't do that are sometimes extremely inappropriate. Is there that education for them, and are there the resources for young women and men?
Bilan, perhaps you could start.
4:10 p.m.
National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
I'll try to keep it short so that Danika can also have some speaking time.
When it comes to good examples, York University has developed a pretty comprehensive and, I think, exemplary program. The sexual violence support centres on campus are almost entirely run by students, so it's peer to-peer-support. These students are paid, which is excellent, because we want to make sure the young people aren't taking on this work without being remunerated. They have quite a bit of representation at the policy development committee of their institution. York in particular, I think, is an institution that has dealt with a lot of reports around sexual violence, but they have also talked at length about the importance of integrating their student community and the community of survivors that are on their campus and in and around it.
On education for men, I think that this aspect is critically missing on a lot of our campuses, and too often, it is student groups who are leading these discussions.
I've yet to see individual campuses that have done any of this programming work. Some student unions, in particular the Student Federation of the University of Ottawa about a year ago was hosting something called “guy talks” on their campus, where they talked about toxic masculinity, what that looks like, and how gender-based violence also affects male students on our campuses.
Those that I have mentioned are talked about, and I think they're acutely felt by those that exist even beyond that binary, you know, with queer and transgendered students, as well.
4:10 p.m.
Representative, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
That's a great question.
I can only really speak to my campus in Edmonton, MacEwan University, which is actually quite rare in the things they're doing with a lot progressive and pilot programs that we're testing out this year.
I noted earlier when I was speaking that in part of our sexual violence education prevention committee, we've put forward a campaign called “No Place Here”. We identify a lot of key individuals within our institution trying to be thought leaders. If a student is walking down the hall and wants to come forward about anything, to ask any questions, we make sure we have the baseline education to refer them elsewhere or bring them to the resource experts.
In terms of young men on campus, right now we are working with community experts, our internal psychologists, internal legal counsel, and a lot of students around the table, and we're going to pilot—it's in a working stage right now—masculinity labs. We're going to bring in young male athletes alongside a lot of first-year students and some fourth-year students to kind of bridge the gap in the communication, as well as our faculty and our staff. It's an understanding that we all need to be on a baseline of learning where we don't separate our faculty and our staff and our students. We all come together as a collective.
This is going to bring forward conversations about masculinity myths and break into the area that hasn't been addressed for very long, which is talking to young men about what they're going through when they come on to campuses, and making sure they have the right education coming through the doors.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
I have one more question on this.
We talk about these important programs and these important discussions. Are any of them mandatory, or may people just happen to show up?
On the masculine talks, are the guys who are attending coming out to support other guys who are doing it, or is it mandatory that they come out and find out that they can and should be expelled for inappropriate behaviour?
4:10 p.m.
Representative, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
It certainly does highlight what policies are in place. It is very blunt in its beginnings of what happens when these actions come forward, and these horrendous issues that we see day in and day out. It then works into whether they understand the policy and how it works here. Again, it's assessing that masculinity topic and breaking down what the myths might be.
That's everything from what's defined in the Criminal Code, all the way toward how to be a respectful individual and what is right and wrong.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
I'm very sorry, but that's your time.
We'll move along to my colleague, Ms. Malcolmson, for seven minutes.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you to all four of the witnesses.
Speaking first with the two student association representatives, I have a concern that students in different parts of the country are going to have unequal access to justice. They may have a similar expectation, having started in one campus and finishing in another, that they are protected in certain ways.
I would like to ask you both whether you share my concern. Could you also tell us the personal implications of this inconsistent approach, both within provinces and in different provinces and territories?
Ms. Arte, might you start?
4:10 p.m.
National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Absolutely.
I do share this concern. Being here in Newfoundland, I had the opportunity at a skills conference this weekend to meet students not only from Memorial University but from a lot of the satellite campuses that this institution has. They go as far up into the island as Gander. Some local college campuses located in Labrador have no rape crisis centres. There are no hotlines. There are no opportunities for students to speak to anyone about their experiences on campus, never mind the limited resources even on this campus.
That's not to say Memorial is necessarily an example in that respect, because there aren't very many resources. In fact, there is only one trained counsellor on this campus to deal with the issue of sexual violence, and the counsellor is often unavailable to meet the demands.
I think that this disparity in access is very problematic. It means that students are going to have to make very harsh decisions about whether they continue their studies based on the availability of certain resources, particularly when they are survivors of issues around sexual and gender-based violence. This disparity exists from coast to coast. That's why it's excellent to see that some provinces are making moves toward challenging the issue of rape culture.
It's great that Ontario, British Columbia and Nova Scotia are looking at legislation. However, that's why we're also here, to make these recommendations to the federal government. This disparity is not working for students. Just because I went to university in Manitoba and perhaps decided to do graduate studies in Alberta should not mean that I have disproportionate access to the types of resources that can help ensure my student experience is as safe and inclusive as possible.
That's definitely why we're talking about legislation at the federal level that would mandate all institutions across Canada to ensure adequate access to resources on sexual and gender-based violence.
4:15 p.m.
Representative, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Thank you very much. It's a great question.
In terms of the unequal access and the inconsistencies, it's obvious that there is an issue. I think that one thing that could be done, and a very tangible first step, would be to encourage Universities Canada to undertake work on a common reporting guideline and a framework for sexual assaults on campus, bringing forward all of the leaders from campus to campus, and in turn having these resources available to them. Then they would have the capacity to gear it to their own campuses and, again, bring that level of consistency.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Have you made that recommendation to Universities Canada already? Is that right? I guess you haven't had a positive response, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it here.
4:15 p.m.
Representative, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Our staff at CASA has actually called on them to create these resources, but unfortunately they have been unwilling to take action. We have reached out.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you both so much for your work. It's powerful and it's important.
If I could turn to the University of Ottawa witnesses, I'm hoping you can tell me more about your recommendations, on the federal side, around how we might reach into the provincial areas of policing and prosecution. Again, I'm concerned about an inconsistent approach across the country, so it is a leadership role that the federal government could take to work with provincial and territorial partners.
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'll say a couple of things, and I'll pass it to Daphne.
I guess the federal government certainly can use its funding power to shape national policy for universities and post-secondary institutions. That's certainly what has happened in the United States. They use the threat of withdrawal of funding as their weapon to clobber universities that do not conform to federal guidelines.
Beyond the mechanism, the issue of leadership is really important here because, as we've all been emphasizing, there's a great deal of disparity. I think every university is afraid of being picked off. As they develop their policy, all the university offices are anxious: “What if we get sued by a disgruntled student?” I'm not sure if they're as afraid of the women suing them, but I think they're certainly afraid of being sued by the men.
I think we could really use the resources and the brain power to come up with a really good model that balances the different interests that universities have, as opposed to the criminal justice system, and come up with a policy that can survive a challenge in the courts.
Last, you referred to policing and criminal prosecution. The federal government can use its federal powers to declare certain issues within federal authority. The feds could, in fact, intervene to ensure some uniformity around policing across the country, and around prosecution across the country. That argument is better developed legally by a scholar named Lucinda Vandervort at the University of Saskatchewan. I will provide the reference to that piece if you're interested in looking at it.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
4:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I would add that when we were developing our policy and were consulting with students, it was clear to us that the students did not want to replicate a criminal justice process on the university campus. We worked hard to make sure that the criminal option was always open to students, and we have a lot of students who want to go forward to the police and initiate that conversation. However, we tried to make a policy that would look very different from a criminal process, because the problems in the criminal process are well documented and we didn't feel the need to replicate that.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
Very good. That's your time.
We're going now to my colleague, Ms. Vandenbeld, for seven minutes.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I want to thank all the witnesses for their incredibly thoughtful contributions today. They are going to help us in our deliberations.
As a local MP, I particularly want to welcome the witnesses from the University of Ottawa. Having seen some of what has happened at that university, it's good to see the movement in this area.
I'm actually very interested, Professor Gilbert, in knowing more about what you said, that it's a non-punitive approach that is survivor-centred, so it's not mirroring the criminal justice process and you're not having face-to-face contact or questions. Do you find that reporting goes up among students, and can you tell us by how much, through a process like that versus the criminal justice system?
4:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
We don't know yet, because our policy is brand new. It was only passed this past summer and we're just rolling it out now.
The statistics are that, of course, sexual assault reporting in a criminal context is extremely low, devastatingly low, and for good reason. We certainly hope that students will come forward more readily in the university context. The formal complaint process is just at one end of the spectrum. Before that, we have a huge range of accommodations we offer students, resources we put to them in terms of counselling, moving dorms, changing classrooms, schedule adjustments, exam adjustments, all sorts of other tactics to try to encourage people to come forward and to cope better with what's happening to them, and then leave the choice about reporting in an official context as one option, but that's not our full focus.