Evidence of meeting #52 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre Fortin  Professor, Department of Economics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
Martha Friendly  Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)
Andrea Doucet  Professor, Canada Research Chair in Gender, Work and Care, Brock University, As an Individual
Morna Ballantyne  Executive Director, Child Care Advocacy Association of Canada

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

I would love to talk to you.

9:20 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

I would like to make a couple of points. First of all, I have 19 years of day care under my belt because I have many children. My wife has run a very large organization, so we've had to make sure that there was flexibility, reliability, and high quality in the day care centres where we sent our children. It's extremely important in my view that, if we want women to stop sticking just at the intermediate or lower levels of management in organizations, that if they take this higher job, as my wife did—she has a good husband and that makes up for it—they have to be guaranteed that their children are going to be well taken care of. This is one condition.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm sorry, that's the time.

We'll go now to Sheila Malcolmson for seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you, Chair.

The conversation this morning is very rich from both of the witnesses. I'm grateful for your work. I've just returned, along with many of my colleagues, from the United Nations status of women convention last week in New York, and the focus was entirely women's economic justice. There wasn't a single panel where pay equity and child care were not mentioned. Then many witnesses from around the world talked about the link between an absence of affordable child care and women inevitably falling into part-time work. They're the parent who falls back from their career, and that puts them into more precarious work, and there's a domino effect throughout a women's life.

I want to start with Martha Friendly. I note the letter that you wrote in combination with a number of other labour, social justice, and non-governmental organizations in November to Minister Duclos asking the government to create a universal public child care system and improve employment insurance access and benefits for precarious workers. There's a very nice linkage of those issues that we were hearing about last week at the UN. I'm interested in whether you've had a good response from the government to this letter. I'd also like you to elaborate on your concerns about parental leave changes by the Liberal government such as spreading parental leave over a longer time period without increasing that actual benefit.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

Those are really good questions.

Let me start by saying that we who work in child care policy don't see it as a free-standing policy. It needs to be supported by better parental leave policy and better policies for families overall. That's because child care is an important piece of family policy, but it's not the only piece. I really appreciate your putting it into that context.

I've always seen parental leave policy as going hand in hand with child care policy. When you read reports by UNICEF, for example, they do make the point that countries that have good parental leave policy also tend to have good child care policy, and that they go hand in hand.

I responded to the consultation on parental leave. I said that parental leave policy is really important because, in reality, we don't really see tiny babies in child care centres unless the families really want and need to do that. We don't see it being a widespread solution to what families do, though. They need to have family time. I think this is quite consistent with what other people have said.

I have always thought that parental leave policy needs to be more flexible. However, if you look at the way it's now set up, it's also very inequitable. The reason it's really inequitable—it's been declared ineffective parental leave policy by organizations like UNICEF, for example—is because it pays so low and because so many women and men are excluded from it. It also is very heavily weighted towards women taking the leave, which disadvantages them, especially if it goes on for a long time.

To keep this really concise, flexibility is important, but flexibility needs to go along with the money that will pay for the parent, the mother, to make the choice to stay at home. I would recommend that, yes, we need to make it more flexible, and not necessarily longer. Flexibility is different from length. Some women or men might like to take it for shorter or longer.

We would like to see earmarked father leave to encourage fathers to enter into caring for their children at a younger age.

We think it needs to be redesigned to make more women and men eligible, as they are in Quebec where it pays much more and the amount of earning is much lower. It needs to cover more kinds of workers—Quebec has already included self-employed workers.

To keep this in one sentence, I support the idea of more flexible parental leave, but I don't think the way it's being pursued by the government is the right way to do it. I think that will make it more inequitable, and I would argue that it should be done in a different way.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

With regard to the November 4 letter, have you had a good response from the government yet?

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

There has been discussion about it. I think, from our point of view, it was in the discussion stage. They just published the report from the consultation, which didn't say very much, actually.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

To Dr. Fortin, I'm very grateful for your work and especially your linkage between the economic benefit of child care and spending on child care. Although this study is just one month old, we've already had witnesses come to argue that programs aimed at low-income Canadians become underfunded. We had Dr. Donna Lero saying, “programs targeted for poor families and poor children tend over time to become poor themselves”.

I'm hoping you can talk with us more about the concept of universality and how that can relate to making sure parents have continuing access to affordable and accessible child care.

9:25 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

First of all, there has to be a lot more investment. I'm talking from the point of view of my province and the program I know. It's quite obvious that we're missing a large number of children from low-income families and that more resources have to be invested, not only in the child care centres, but if they want to stay in their home, services that would get to the children there. Certainly more resources are needed in that way. The nice thing, la beauté des choses, is that the system itself, by bringing so much more tax revenue into government coffers, makes the additional resources available that are needed to raise quality and take care of the special needs of the poorer members of our community.

Another important aspect of universality is that it generates contacts between higher-income children and lower-income children. I come from a high-income family—my wife and I are in the 1%—but in the 19 years I've had in a non-profit day care centre, all my children have had contacts with much lower-income people. Today, when they are 35, 40, their groups of friends are still with lower or middle-class families. It is an investment in equality in Canada.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm sorry, I have to go now to Mr. Fraser, for seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much.

I'd ask that we try to keep our answers short, because I have a lot that I'd like to cover and I really benefit from the expertise that you've brought to table.

9:30 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

It's passion.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That's good. We need more of that.

Monsieur Fortin, I'll begin with you.

You ended your remarks on a recommendation that we create a piece of legislation that would essentially see a federal-provincial transfer for the purpose of universal low-fee child care. I'm wondering if you think that's the one thing the federal government should do and, say, leave the management to the provinces. I see a number of other areas where the federal government has a role, whether it's investing in child care infrastructure or potentially investing in skills and training development for the workers we need if we're going to extend access universally.

Could you comment on what you see as the role the federal government?

9:30 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

You're definitely right. However, we live in the country we live in, and there certainly has to be a negotiation between the national government and the provincial governments.

If I were Jean-Yves Duclos —he's a long-time friend—I would definitely push forward those elements that you're thinking about. Of course, at that end of the day, the result would be what it would be with the various governments.

Basically, I think the constraint is that the program should be low fee and universal. I'm not against the market. I've spent all my life defending the market to those left-wing guys. However, in the case of child care, market-based brings low cost but at the cost of no quality.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

As a follow-up, on the issue of quality, then, what happens when quality does fail? Should we tie funding to performance? Should we have some sort of an ombudsperson people can complain to and who can investigate, so we can target our investments to those areas that are failing? What do we do when quality breaks down?

9:30 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

It would be provincial programs, but I think the idea of an ombudsman is a good idea. I don't know to what extent it would be possible, but definitely

that really appeals to me.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Ms. Friendly, feel free to comment on the previous questions. I saw you nodding.

You touched very lightly on some of the rural and remote areas. I come from a constituency that is primarily defined by small towns and rural communities, and access to child care is in small pockets.

Could you comment about the unique features that we should be considering in the development of policy to ensure that those small communities are effectively serviced in any kind of a national framework on child care?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

In answer to your question, I think it really goes back to this question of building a system and moving away from the market. I think that's the key thing we really need to do, and this goes right across the country. We leave it to the market to let child care appear wherever somebody decides to put it at this point. It's not a planned service like education and hospitals.

Absolutely that is key. There is not an instance in the world of a child care situation that serves families' needs that's done through the market. The market applies to lots of things such as how it's funded, how it gets there, and how it's supported.

I don't think child care is the absolute answer for every family's need, but it's very clear from looking around internationally that we could do much better in rural communities and remote communities, and for non-standard hours workers.

Your questions about quality are very related to this question of the market. We don't have assistance for supporting child care. We don't support the workforce. I don't know if anybody has talked to you about the child care workforce and where that fits into women's economic security, but we completely underfund child care so that parent fees are paying the workers' wages. We have never really established any standards for training and for quality, compared to other countries.

Before we start using market techniques, consumerist techniques like an ombudsperson, we need to think about building the infrastructure of a system that supports the workforce. This is the key to any good early childhood education program. It's not all there is to it. That's why I—

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

On that question, just before we wrap up, has there ever been an assessment done that either of you are aware of on the extent of either the infrastructure or skills deficit that would lay the groundwork for success in the national child care framework?

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

Years ago a national study was done of the workforce. I think it's time for another one.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

You have one and a half minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Childcare Resource and Research Unit (CRRU)

Martha Friendly

A study of the workforce was done in the 1990s, but this is 2017. I think one of the pieces of what the federal government should convene in its role as social policy convenor is a national workforce strategy. It is within provincial jurisdiction. One of the things that unites the provinces and territories is that the workforce issues are relatively the same across Canada: training, low wages, low recognition, poor working conditions, and not enough people.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Okay.

Mr. Fortin.

9:35 a.m.

Prof. Pierre Fortin

In the high performance CPE network, early childhood centre networks in Quebec, about 80% of personnel have a CEGEP degree in child care services. In the private sector, which is the low-quality sector, it's 40%.

It would be an interesting idea to explore the possibility that a federal program would put a minimum training level required for a subsidy to be made.

March 21st, 2017 / 9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Thanks so much to both of the witnesses for the excellence of the work that you do and for your testimony. We are now going to do a bit of committee business squeezed in between this panel and the next one.

First, I want to thank all the committee members for the excellent job on the press conference yesterday. We had some good pickup and that was lovely.

Second, we did such an amazing job on the gender equality bill that they have forwarded to us Bill C-337.

Ms. Damoff.