Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We are pleased to be here today for the clause-by-clause review of Bill C-337, an act to amend the Judges Act and the Criminal Code, regarding sexual assault.

We'll begin our clause-by-clause. Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), the consideration of the preamble and clause 1, the short title, is postponed.

(On clause 2)

If you refer to the amendments that were sent out, you'll see that there is a Liberal-1 amendment. I want to inform the committee that if Liberal-1 is adopted, then NDP-1 cannot be moved, because there is a line conflict there. Just be aware of that.

Liberal-1 says that Bill C-337, in clause 2, be amended by replacing line 28 on page 2 with the following:

hensive

(i) education in sexual assault law that includes

Also, that clause 2 be amended by replacing line 32 on page 2 with the following:

associated with sexual assault complainants, and

(ii) social context education.

Is there discussion on the amendment?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do I have to speak first because I moved it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. I'm not actually going to move.... I guess I have to move it to have a discussion.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Sean, if that's okay, if you could recognize him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Do you intend to move it or not?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'd like to have a discussion first, if we could. Is that allowed?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If you want to move it, I think that's fine, Pam.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I can move it and then withdraw it if I want. Is that right?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's right.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'll move it, but I may withdraw it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

The amendment is moved.

We'll have discussion from Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Before we get into the specifics of the proposed amendment, which Pam will probably still want to speak to, I want to say to my colleagues around the table that this study has been an absolute pleasure to work on with everyone. I want to let you know from the beginning that we had a meeting of our caucus, and we are largely in support of this bill. We don't want to tear down any of the major provisions. I want to kick off the discussion with that sort of good-faith suggestion to let you guys know that we don't want to have a big fight about this issue. It's important that we all agree, and I think we all want to land in the same place.

Pam, I know you'll want to speak to the reason behind your amendment, so I won't step on your toes.

We've learned that Liberal-1, if adopted as is, would render null and void Sheila's amendment. Sheila, I wanted to let you know that we actually quite like where you are going with your amendment, and if there is an opportunity to collapse the piece that Pam is about to raise with what you are doing, we'd entertain that. When I read the language, I think it will simply be inserting the words “social context education” in the correct spot. I want to make sure that we do it in the correct procedural way, from the clerk's perspective.

With that, I'll hand it back over to Pam to talk about the importance of her proposed amendment.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Sean.

We put forward our amendment because of testimony we heard in terms of the social context and the need for the training to focus not just on the law, which is extremely important, but also on the social context of the law. We heard, especially on our second panel, that, as it is worded right now, it's too narrow and it doesn't include that social context. It doesn't include the realities and the concerns Canadians have about what the training is right now.

As Sean said, we quite like Sheila's amendment, so perhaps the clerk can guide us on wording to get “social context” into NDP-1.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Malcolmson, go ahead.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I appreciate the spirit of collaboration around the table here. My team has worked with the clerk to identify a way to amend the Liberal amendment to include some of that social context. My sense is that if we were to proceed as per the normal path, then I would move an amendment, and I am ready to do that once the chair lets me know that the motion is on the floor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Actually, yours would be a subamendment to the amendment.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I propose a subamendment to Liberal-1.

Liberal-1 says that Bill C-337, in clause 2, be amended “by replacing line 28 on page 2 with the following”. My subamendment is in proposed subparagraph 3(b)(i), after the words “education in sexual assault law that”. I would insert the following new words, and this is mostly what is written in NDP-1:

has been developed in consultation with sexual assault survivors, as well as with groups and organizations that support them, and that includes

May I speak to that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes, please.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

The rationale is that we heard a number of witnesses testify that consulting women's organizations that have on-the-ground experience and experience with survivors of sexual assault...be able to formally inform the training of judges. We heard Mr. Sabourin say, “I welcome the involvement, and we want to do that at the CJC, working with NJI to involve community groups in the development” and that not consulting would be “a very bad idea”.

We also had an overwhelming number of witnesses who have experience with supporting victims of sexual assault who said that they were never consulted. Jackie Stevens, from the Avalon Sexual Assault Centre, said that they have had many experts from the community working hands-on with these issues who wanted to be involved.

Nneka MacGregor, executive director of the Women's Centre for Social Justice, said that we must include the voices of those individuals who have lived through the justice system, because it's their experience “that is actually going to change the perception and the understanding”.

We also had testimony from Marlihan Lopez, a liaison officer. She said:

It's very important with these types of initiatives that the groups on the ground that have the expertise be consulted. I see it over and over again. [These] groups aren't consulted, then these projects are pushed forward, and finally they don't address the realities that victims, or survivors face in sexual assault.

Finally, Jeremy Dias, executive director of the Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity, said that civil society should not be left out of the conversation. “Step one is opening the doors so we can engage with them in having that conversation.”

The subamendment that I propose would be to formally bring those organizations in to shape on the type of sexual assault training that judges receive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Well done. Is there any discussion on the subamendment?

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

We are on board with that. I think that is a very solid amendment. Thank you for all the work that both parties have done on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Is there any other discussion on the subamendment?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Ms. Malcolmson.

I have one point of clarity. When I heard it read into the record, I was unclear if that was in addition to what was proposed in the first amendment or if it was the amendment in totality.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

It was in addition to what was proposed in Liberal-1.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

When I'm reading it, I'm just trying to make sure that I have a full grasp of it because where it picks up is mid-word.

Ms. Malcolmson, could you read what the complete amendment would look like, including your subamendment, if adopted?