Evidence of meeting #61 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reasons.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gillian Blackell  Senior Counsel and Acting Director, Policy Centre for Victim Issues, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Uzma Ihsanullah  Counsel, Constitutional, Administrative and International Law Section, Department of Justice

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

Ms. Vecchio.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Thank you very much.

You mentioned that the site is maintained by CanLII, and I want to get some clarification. Is that a public website, or is that specific to judges and lawyers only? Would anybody in Canada be able to access that?

Secondly, in looking at this, I totally understand where you're coming from, but one of my concerns is that if it comes to the provincial level—I realize there's going to have to be a balance here when we come to the Constitution—we recognize that there's access to information. That's another hurdle.

We do not want to put in any hurdles, whether for our media or our victims, whoever it may be, with another cost. These can be very expensive things as well. We want to make sure that this is easily accessible and at very little cost, if any cost whatsoever.

First of all, could you comment on CanLII and let me know about that? That may be the best opportunity or the best situation we have, and you could continue from there.

9:40 a.m.

Senior Counsel and Acting Director, Policy Centre for Victim Issues, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Gillian Blackell

Indeed, CanLII is a free and extensive online search engine that contains over a million decisions from Canada's courts and administrative tribunals, as well as laws and regulations from across the country. It's a non-governmental organization and it is funded by the Federation of Law Societies of Canada, which is the national coordinating body of Canada's 14 provincial and territorial law societies. Funding for specific projects are also sometimes provided by other levels of government as well. It works with the privately run company, Lexum.

When CanLII started in 2000 it was a bit of an experiment. There are private companies, like Quicklaw, that cost money for access, which lawyers had traditionally accessed. CanLII is part of an international project for free law and access. It has actually grown. It's extensive. It's publicly available. It's used regularly. The reports of its use and expansion is quite progressive.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Right now, I would be able to go on CanLII and be able to pull up a thing. Any Canadian would have access to that. Is that right?

9:40 a.m.

Senior Counsel and Acting Director, Policy Centre for Victim Issues, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Gillian Blackell

Absolutely.

In terms of the court record, I want to make it clear that when an oral reason is recorded on the court record, it becomes available. It's available at the court. Some places sometimes have certain photocopy fees, but those are more minimal. That's distinguished from the actual transcript. If you want the transcript of the entire proceeding, those are usually through companies that are external. Again, the practice varies depending on the court. Having it available on the court record and then making that accessible would be up to the courts, but it's not the same in terms of accessibility as an entire transcript.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

Mr. Fraser.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much. I sincerely appreciate your advice and information.

To address Ms. Vecchio's issue regarding the cost, I understand that the cost of an actual transcript is in the range of seven cents a word. I think the likely solution is that at the provincial level, the folks making the decision on the mode of making accessible these decisions will likely get with the times and use an electronic version, I would hope. I think that would be preferred.

I would suggest it would be appropriate for this committee, if this amendment is adopted, to write to our provincial counterparts, or different bodies that we identify—it doesn't have to take place in this meeting—and recommend strongly that they make these available online so anyone with an Internet connection can access the decisions that currently might be recorded but not reported.

I think we'd be on safe ground to make that recommendation, as long as we're not trying to do it through the criminal law power and usurp provincial jurisdiction.

With that, I think I'm pleased to move to a vote, unless there's further discussion on the amendment.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I have Ms. Vecchio on the speaking list.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

If we're going to vote, that's fantastic.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

As a heads-up, we won't move forward with the amendment that we had proposed because Mr. Fraser's new motion captures it. But I want again on the record to have the witnesses who came before the committee note that we heard them and we heard from a great range of people who certainly pointed out, whether they were representing victims or whether they were people on the advocacy and justice side, that the need for this is great.

I'll say as well, we were delighted to see mainstream media reporting on the worst of the sexual assault trials that go sideways. We also know that we have less and less money in conventional publishing to go out and do that investigative journalism, which is a great cause of concern.

If we're able to adopt Mr. Fraser's proposal, which has been guided off the rocks a little bit by the justice department—so thank you for that teamwork—then it will respond to a need that's been identified on the record by witnesses. We will, for the New Democratic side, be supporting it.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

We fully support the amendment. We believe it will have the best outcome.

One thing I would like to see actioned, as indicated by Mr. Fraser, is the letter that goes off to the provinces. Since we'll be voting on this amendment and not actually that letter, what are the actions we must take to show that we, as a group, have decided that we will provide a letter to the provinces? I want to know a little more on the actions that need to be taken.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I've taken a note to have that action. I believe we need a motion for that action. We've just given the instruction to the clerk to do that, should this next amendment that we're about to vote on happen.

I want to thank our experts from the justice department for helping us, and I want to thank the collegial and co-operative spirit of this committee.

With that, the new Liberal-3 has been moved. Is there any further discussion on it?

(Amendment agreed to)

Wonderful.

I understand from Ms. Malcolmson that NDP-5 will not be discussed.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I believe we voted just on the amendment, but not on the clause.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

You're right. I was about to get there.

I'm just confirming, though, that we're not moving ahead with amendment NDP-5.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Yes. I will withdraw amendment NDP-5. It's no longer necessary by virtue of Mr. Fraser's motion.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

(Clause 5 as amended agreed to)

Shall clause 6 carry?

9:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Shall the preamble carry?

9:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Shall clause 1 carry?

Too fast?

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Yes.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

All right. Clause 1 is the short title. I think everybody agreed with that, is that right?

Just for clarity, shall the short title carry?

9:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Shall the title carry?

9:50 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.