Status of Women Committee on May 18th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We are continuing the study on the economic security of women in Canada.

Today, we are hearing from Nathalie Goulet, director of the Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail, as well as Ruth Rose-Lizée, a member of the same organization.

Thank you for joining us and welcome.

We also have Beatrix Dart, a professor with the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto.

Welcome, Beatrix.

We'll begin with Nathalie for seven minutes.

[Nathalie Goulet, Director, Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for inviting me to appear before the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

I will briefly introduce the Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail, or CIAFT, and will then yield the floor to Ruth Rose-Lizée, who will continue with the presentation.

CIAFT is a non-profit, non-governmental organization that advocates for women's rights in the workplace. It is the foremost organization in Quebec's women's movement focusing on rights in the workplace. That includes Quebec's pay equity legislation, work-family balance and various related social programs, labour standards, and so on. It also covers employment, including the partnership we have established with Emploi-Québec and the Commission des partenaires du marché du travail.

I now yield the floor to Ms. Rose-Lizée.

[Ruth Rose-Lizée, Member, Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail]

I assume that you already have a lot of figures on the wage inequality between men and women, so I will not provide any figures. We actually sent you a 2015 document that provides a number of figures with respect to that.

I will instead move on to the recommendations.

First, we would like the federal government to introduce proactive pay equity legislation in its area of jurisdiction and ensure that this legislation is properly implemented. We now have 20 years of experience with the legislation in Quebec. Some shortcomings have been noted, especially when it comes to non-unionized women. I believe that the federal government could benefit from Ontario's and Quebec's experiences to immediately and vigorously enforce the legislation.

Second, we note that women who take care of vulnerable individuals and children are still underpaid, especially in the areas of early childhood education, work in seniors residences and home support services. Those areas come under provincial jurisdiction.

Furthermore, I sat on the 1986 child care task force. The recommendations we issued to create a Canada-wide program on child care have still not been implemented. The current government has put in place small funding programs for organizations, but we think that it could do much better and that the money should go only to public non-profit organizations that are certified by a provincial or a territorial government. One of their objectives should be to fairly compensate individuals who have a very heavy responsibility in the areas of health and welfare of children and vulnerable individuals.

When it comes to access to employment, we think that the government should reintroduce its equal employment access programs, not only for women, but also for other discriminated-against groups, such as visible minority recent immigrants, aboriginals and persons with functional limitations.

There are still issues in terms of access to language courses, especially for immigrant women. There are also problems in terms of the failure to recognize foreign degrees. Since immigration is a federal responsibility, the government could do a much better job in that area.

Concerning employment insurance, we have also sent a text that documents issues of discrimination against women in employment insurance. I cannot raise all those arguments today, but one thing is very clear: the eligibility criteria for benefits, which are based on hours worked, are discriminatory. Someone who works 35 hours or less per week has much less access to the employment insurance program than people who work 40 hours a week or even, as in the case of male seasonal workers, 45 or 50 hours a week.

I hope that you will look at these documents to better understand the arguments.

When it comes to parental benefits, the Quebec parental insurance plan has been integrated into Canada's employment insurance system, but it is poorly adapted to parental insurance issues, mainly because there is a waiting period that should not exist.

So we recommend instead that the Quebec pension plan and the Canada pension plan models be adopted, so that we would have a federal parental insurance plan with criteria adapted to parental benefits.

Finally, we reiterate what you have already suggested: women should have better representation on federal boards of directors, as well as among candidates in federal elections.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Beatrix Dart for seven minutes.

[Dr. Beatrix Dart, Professor, Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto, As an Individual]

Thank you very much for having me here.

I must admit, I'm a little like a fish outside the water. I don't do politics, and I am a problem-solver by training. I had a long-standing career at McKinsey as a problem-solver, and I'm now at the University of Toronto as a professor of strategy, where I look at strategy problems. But I also have been involved with advancing women for the last 15 years. Even with my work at McKinsey, they asked me to do a task force to make sure we don't lose women when they become mothers, and that seems to be one of the challenging situations.

I'm coming at this from a bit of a different angle. I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, why has there been such a lack of progress? We've been at this for 20 to 30 years. If this had been any other business problem, the CEOs would have been fired for not making any progress on any of those indicators. How can we look at this problem differently? Clearly, we're just fixing symptoms. I don't think we fix the problem. You know the symptoms. I don't need to go back to the stagnation; women in senior roles have not been moving forward. We don't have more women on boards. What has happened over the last few years has been appalling. We still have hiring biases, and yes, we still have a gender pay gap. We've been at it for at least 20 years. Marilyn, you said this committee has been in existence for 24 years. What else can I say?

However, some progress has been made on more awareness. We have more discussion on this topic. We have more organizations involved in this topic, so there is some progress where we have moved from fixing the women because this is a women's issue, to this is a social issue. I see that as progress.

I believe we are not addressing the systemic issues underneath it. If I may be so blunt—and I apologize because I'm Swiss-German and I'm Canadian as a second choice and I love being in Canada—what stands out to me is the patriarchal mindset in Canada. Unless we change that mindset, and and I think the government can play a role in that, I don't think we'll truly make any progress. We'll fix a few symptoms again, and we'll tweak a little bit here and there, but I don't think there will be any real progress. I'm looking at other countries where true progress has been made. Is there something we can learn and take away from that?

The second point I would make around that is, although it's lovely that we have created more awareness and that there are more organizations involved now, it has become unproductive. We have too many fragmented approaches in trying to solve this issue. I don't know how many witnesses you're going to listen to during this standing committee's existence, but you have way too many organizations trying to make a couple of small impacts without an overarching strategy and goal.

I would propose two solutions to consider for discussion, and I set this out in my document. One would be to influence the mindset and the patriarchal attitude in Canada. That in my mind is a role that government can play. You have had exposure, I'm sure, to behavioural economics. I know about behavioural economics at the federal government level. Government can truly influence helping society to change behaviour.

A shock to the system would be required, and that shock in my mind at this point is a quota system. That is never popular in countries where it's not in existence, but if you go back to European countries who have introduced it, such as France—and I just came from a conference there—nobody liked it when it was discussed, but everybody loves it now that it's implemented. The same holds true for a lot of the Scandinavian countries.

As I said, I think you need a shock to the system to change the mindset of society. Ideally, you don't have to have it in place for very long. It can be staged, and it should have a sunset clause at some point, but you will need to have a drastic impact.

I also want to echo something that was just discussed by the two experts before me. There is also a change possible by introducing mandatory parental leave. This is to make it not optional, but mandatory, for all those new dads to stay at home for a minimum of three months. The European countries that have introduced this have seen a huge change in attitude in society because suddenly it is not considered odd that dad might take the baby to the doctor or be on the playground or run the household and clean the toilets. I think there's a huge benefit to making it mandatory. If you leave it optional, as it currently is in most places other than Quebec, where it is a bit more advanced, men will not take it because there's too much stigma attached to it, right?

The third point around changing the mindset and the attitudes is that there needs to be some more support in getting women back to the workforce once they have stepped out. A lot of women will take parental leave and they will be out for two or three years depending on how many children they choose to have. Sometimes they step out for elder care. Sometimes they step out because their partners are moving around and they are the ones who are holding up the household. Re-entering the workforce is increasingly difficult once you have been out two or three year or more, particularly for women who have advanced degrees. It sounds ridiculous to most ears, but it is actually quite challenging. Despite having a master's degree, whether it is from a recognized university in Canada or outside Canada, the re-entry has been very challenging for most women. We know that because we've been trying to help them for the last six or seven years. I believe you're missing a large economic impact. Particularly for women who are educated at a higher level, the economic impact is huge. So there is something that can be done.

Finally, I know I'm out of time, but I would encourage the federal government to create an umbrella organization. We have been running a pilot currently in Ontario called “the alliance”. I would encourage you to create an umbrella organization to make better use of the funding and to have an overarching strategy for all these wonderful organizations trying to advance women.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

We will begin with Mrs. Nassif.

You have seven minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for their presentations.

I would like to begin with a question for Ms. Goulet from the Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail.

Can you talk to us about your recommendation to the federal government to enact legislation stipulating that at least 40% of the individuals on a federal political party's list of candidates be women, while maintaining the idea of open nominations?

[Nathalie Goulet]

That work must be done by the political parties. It is a long-term undertaking that must also be done on an ongoing basis by the political parties.

However, there is more and more talk in Quebec about tools. There is still no provincial legislation, but people are increasingly talking about a level of equality to be achieved—female candidates accounting for between 40% and 60% of all candidates in elections. That would be done while hoping, of course, that the women included in that gender equality initiative would be elected to Parliament.

I am very much in favour of adopting those kinds of measures and objectives, coupled with many other tools, as we know that we are fighting against systemic discrimination, once again. To reach a target whereby between 40% and 60% of candidates and elected representatives would be women, we need a set of tools.

However, having a very clear objective is very mobilizing, even with an objective of 50%, or parity. Some municipal and governmental political parties are now trying to reach a 50% target. However, this is not an issue that my organization, CIAFT, is working on. As we said, we are more focused on workplace rights and employment programs.

However, this issue is currently under a lot of discussion within Quebec's political parties. Applying gender parity measures is very strongly encouraged, but it still stems from voluntary measures and not coercive measures with real objectives to be achieved by the parties.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Ms. Dart, did you want to add anything?

[Dr. Beatrix Dart]

I believe, as I pointed out earlier, that we need to set some quota to make progress, and I believe, even at the federal level, that having an equal representation among various genders would be very desirable. The countries that have introduced that have a better balance, not only on the right committees but also in their culture, society, and mindset. I think the federal government has to be the role model, and I would highly encourage progressing with quota on this point.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

My question is for everyone. You can answer it first, Ms. Dart, if you like.

Given the country's aging population, could you talk about the demand for affordable housing and old age homes for women who are aging in financial insecurity?

[Dr. Beatrix Dart]

This is not necessarily my area of expertise, but with my economic training, let me just try to give you a couple of suggestions around that.

I think, again, it starts by building economic security earlier on in life. It is a challenge if you have been dependent on a partner—in many cases a male partner—and at some point, either the partner might step out because the economic union has not been successful, or other unfortunate tragic situations might happen. I think you find a lot of women single at an advanced age, which has impacted their economic security, and it has impacted, of course, what they can afford.

I find that in many of the other countries I've been working in, there has been a better social security net provided for the aging population. There has been more support provided, as well, in terms of the social insurance system around that. As I said, I'm no expert on social insurance policies, but I would imagine that looking at and taking some insights from those European countries might help.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Would any other witnesses like to answer this question?

[Ruth Rose-Lizée]

Yes, I would like to talk about that.

Among seniors, the housing issue is especially common with women who find themselves alone late in life. I think that adapted and affordable housing would be a very good initiative by the federal government, in collaboration with the provinces.

I know that Scandinavian countries, especially Denmark, have a policy to provide bachelor apartments to all seniors who are losing their autonomy. Not only does this give seniors access to affordable housing, but it makes the provision of home support services much easier, since the personnel is on site. Services such as cafeterias or nurses on site may be provided. So it is more effective and cheaper to provide those services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you.

I want to welcome to our committee today Bob Benzen and John Barlow.

We'll start with John Barlow for seven minutes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Ms. Dart, I want to speak with you initially, and just before I get into my main questions, you mentioned the need to have quota at the federal government level. Are you talking about elected officials as well? If that's the case, how do you see us working that in terms of elections and nominations? Is this something other countries have done, and how do they make it work?

[Dr. Beatrix Dart]

You would hope that a government is representative of the population. That is the main cause of having representation. If you have a government that is not very balanced.... In particular, gender balance is the obvious one to me, because we can easily measure whether we are fifty-fifty in terms of where we need to be with our representation.

I do believe that there might be mechanisms possible. My assumption is that you are asking, quite practically, how does that look? First of all, you would have to encourage more women to be available to stand. I know there are some organizations, like Equal Voice, etc., that are trying to persuade more women to stand for election.

A bit more grassroots movement might be required first, but I do believe that if they see there is actually a need to fill those positions.... My experience has been that women are pretty good at standing up when there is a need, but maybe that has to be encouraged more than it currently is. Right now, most women see the challenges of becoming elected, the maybe-not-so-lovely path up to a position. More support would probably be required to make that a reality, but even having the statement out there that we are looking for a gender-balanced election as we go forward would hopefully get women more interested.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

So it's not necessarily a hard quota—saying, “I'm sorry. You're a guy, so you can't run in this election. We're looking for...”. It's just about being more proactive at the grassroots level and finding strong women, or women who would be interested, and encouraging them to run.

[Dr. Beatrix Dart]

You could put a hard quota in place, and, ideally, it would lead to every party being exactly gender-balanced. I think the challenge is that you might not have enough current supply, so to speak. This is something that needs to be built over time.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

We did a previous study similar to this when we were government. I remember that one of the statistics that came out of that was that more than 80% of the new businesses started in Canada were started by women, which I thought was an incredible number. I could be a bit wrong, but I think that the economic impact over the next decade of these small businesses started by women would be $10 billion.

There were some barriers, obviously. Many women were going into starting these small businesses with a lack of experience, compared to their male counterparts, and were also having difficulty in accessing capital. Also, mentorship was a big one.

Are these still pretty significant barriers for women getting into business? What are some options for how we can try to address some of those barriers?

[Dr. Beatrix Dart]

John, before we go to that question, I think there's actually a deeper cause. Why are women starting businesses? If you look at the research around women entrepreneurs, you see that a lot of them leave the corporate environment, in many cases out of frustration. They say, “You know what? I've had enough of this. I'm going to do my own thing.”

Although 80% sounds like a large number, the problem is that you have a lot of women entrepreneurs who have no intention whatsoever of growing their business into a larger one. Most of these women entrepreneurs' organizations are very small. The vast majority are one-person shops. They started them for lifestyle reasons, not necessarily to contribute major revenue back to the economy. This is a mechanism to deal with the frustration they have encountered in their career progression, so you have a lot of very small businesses started by women, and they will never grow into the $1-million range, for example, in terms of revenue.

Once we look at the motivation for starting these businesses and whether there truly is any interest in advancing them, and we segment out the group that really does it for lifestyle reasons, and start looking at the ones who do indeed have an intention to grow it into a major business—maybe even adding more personnel and going into the $10-million range—then we can look at the barriers they are encountering. There is no doubt that there are some barriers. Again, a lot of research has been done that women don't get as much attention and access to capital.

Can something be done about it? Yes, I think most banks have woken up to the fact that these would be interesting customers. If they just put something in place that would be more attractive to women entrepreneurs, they might have a new customer base. I have a bit of faith that market forces will solve this one. I'm not too concerned about that. I know it might sound naive. I am more concerned about the women entrepreneurs who have stepped out and now do one-person shops because of the frustration that they couldn't progress in their previous careers.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I see that our witnesses who joined us by video conference are shaking their head. Is there something you wanted to add to that as well?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Nathalie Goulet]

We agree with Ms. Dart on this issue.

Clearly, entrepreneurs who want to start a business need better access to credit, especially microcredit. There are many programs in terms of that, but as an organization, we do not prioritize that path toward economic self-sufficiency over other options.

On the contrary, we believe that structural changes need to be made to the labour market. In addition, we need proactive legislation on wage equity; a funded, accessible and universal daycare system; and equal employment access programs. Those are the structuring policies to really help improve the economic situation of women in Canada.

[Ruth Rose-Lizée]

I would also like to add that, in Quebec, self-employed workers are eligible for the Quebec parental insurance plan. At the federal level, over the past year or two, they have been able to buy into special employment insurance benefits, but it's very expensive and the conditions are very restrictive. We also have concerns when it comes to that. We want self-employed workers to have access to a good parental insurance plan with suitable conditions.