Status of Women Committee on May 30th, 2017

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

That's what we're working on here.

[Iris Meck]

I think people have to understand what the definition of true leadership is. If leadership is defined by the number of senior positions that are held by women in an organization, that could be one definition. However, I think our overall definition of leadership has to be looked at when you look at individual genders.

Women play a huge role—and they should be recognized as playing the huge role that they do—in agriculture as support: playing a part in a farming operation, working with the organizations that they do on the rural levels, and taking senior, middle, and lower management positions in corporate agribusiness. I think there's a tremendous opportunity for women to increase that and to raise that level, but I think we have to take a look at what the true definition of leadership is.

We have to recognize that women do take maternity leave and that their salaries, jobs, positions, and roles are affected by that. Sometimes I think we have to turn the corner and look at the recognition women get from the male gender, by having males understand the role of women in an industry and what role they can play to assist women in keeping a leadership status.

I think it's all in the definition.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Byers, at our last committee meeting, we had testimony from Professor Beatrix Dart from the University of Toronto, who was talking about quotas being the shock to the system that is really needed and who said that the comply or explain model, which has been used both in corporate Canada and the Government of Canada, just hasn't worked.

We've been discouraged to see the present government carrying on the previous government's tool of that comply or explain model in their Bill C-25. I have a private member's bill, Bill C-220, which instead suggests quotas around crown corporation appointments and what the federal government has direct responsibility for in order to reach gender parity of 50% over a six-year term.

Because you introduced it in your brief to the committee, can you talk a little more about your recommendation to impose quotas and the value of the quota model from the industry you're representing?

[Dorothy Byers]

The challenge with quotas, of course, is that when women are appointed or find their way through, the comment will be made that it's because of the quota. The big challenge then remains having a really carefully thought-out list of criteria that a candidate must meet. We know there are very many highly trained, highly skilled, and absolutely excellent candidates of both genders. Often, though, as we've certainly seen in the research we've done, it is the unconscious bias that will enter into hiring.

If you had blind applications or names that could be either male or female just to get through the initial stage of application, it would be interesting to research the impact that would have. Then, I believe, you could put a quota in place, and women would know that they had been appointed or that they had been the successful candidate because of their skill set, not because of their gender. Perhaps more importantly, the men who might be critical of that would also be aware that the women at the table are there because they're the best candidates.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

You also talked about pay equity, the wage gap. We've been discouraged that there is a bit of a delay. Have you any advice for the federal government on how fast it should move to legislate?

[Dorothy Byers]

Tomorrow.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Tomorrow.

[Dorothy Byers]

It's something we've been talking about for a very long time. I was just reading my Twitter feed before I came in, and Ontario is talking about raising the minimum wage. I'm not quite sure what the speed will be on that, but when there are issues that have been impacting and affecting us as a society for a significant period of time, I think the time is the present. I'm a little impatient on those types of things.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Yes. It's time.

Thank you. Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you.

We will go to my colleague Ms. Vandenbeld, who is sharing her time with Ms. Nassif.

You have seven minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, which were quite enlightening.

My first question is for Ms. Byers.

As we all know, we are constantly working on overcoming certain obstacles, including the fact that masculinity is associated with jobs in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and femininity is associated with nursing. We are noting some progress in that respect, but the fact remains that a change in culture must happen.

Do we know of any effective tools that could be used—be they incentives or awareness-raising mechanisms—to encourage women to integrate into disciplines that are already considered as male-specific and are generally male-dominated?

[Dorothy Byers]

Looking at tools to incentivize or to support women going into the field is often in the hands of the employers or of the universities. One of the things FIRST Canada did was to align itself with industry leaders as well as organizations to first build a network so that employers understand the need for females in STEM-related fields to be able to have an opportunity to go into those areas, and then to incentivize the company itself to be able to keep them there, whether it's through training programs or whether it's through opportunities for the women to learn further.

The federal government could support industries that move in that direction so that they could have a support system in place. Those kinds of programs could be paid for or supported or resourced by government as an opportunity for women to learn further in those areas.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much. That was a very good answer.

Is education from a very early age the answer? In other words, will that help women—as well as men—take note of a wide range of disciplines and opportunities available in terms of careers?

Will that also help teach them about individuality, gender equality and the ability to decipher all the contradictory messages the media and popular culture bombard us with every day?

[Dorothy Byers]

Children need to have an opportunity in school to learn about how society works. It's critical for girls and boys to understand the need for having equity, for having diversity and inclusion in everything they do.

I know that my educational colleagues would groan a little because it would be another program that would be put in place, but it would be easy, frankly. When you talk about programs in schools, look at pedagogical practices in a classroom to engage both boys and girls; look at all of the statistical information and all the research that's been done about the number of boys versus girls who are called on to answer a question, or even the opportunity for girls to put their hand up, where boys will shoot their hand up. Looking in those different ways, supporting girls in the classroom, and helping the boys understand that the girls' voices are just as important, although they may be quieter, will encourage and support the girls and help build their confidence at the very beginning of their educational career.

One thing that always drove me crazy in the co-ed educational classroom, and I will reference science classrooms in particular, was seeing the boys with their noses in the test tubes and the girls sitting back taking the notes. One thing I really worked to change was so that everybody would have equal time at the test tube, if you want to think of it in that way. It's a simple strategy in the classroom, but it's instructive both to the boys as well as the girls, giving them the opportunity to do that.

Education is a key place to begin.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Would additional training be required?

That is actually not a federal responsibility. That decision comes under provincial jurisdiction.

That said, do you feel that additional training would be necessary?

[Dorothy Byers]

I believe that what we're doing at FIRST Robotics Canada is critical. That is helping girls to understand that they are confident, to build their confidence—they have so much to offer—and that, frankly, the gender biases they experience, whether in school or in the workforce, need to stop. If they have the skills and the resilience to meet those challenges head-on, they will certainly be able to contribute in a better and more fulsome way to what we can do in society in Canada.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Byers.

I have one minute to ask Ms. Meck a question.

In agriculture, women remain underrepresented in management positions, including as cooperative leaders, a role you have played, Ms. Meck. We know that there are barriers. Statistics show that there are more women than men with university degrees.

Ms. Meck, could you tell us what obstacles prevent women from accessing management positions in agriculture?

[Iris Meck]

I think that is changing, those numbers are changing. The percentage of women who are becoming recognized in the agricultural field, in associations and organizations, is changing. I can't say what the number is in percentages, but I think it is changing from the days when I started in the industry in 1978, when there were token women brought into organizations to meet the balance of equity in the workforce.

I'm totally against that. I think it is an area where women have to strive to achieve, and men have to recognize that the position is available to either gender. Through the organization of conferences like this, we do see recognition of women at the podium, women at the management level. I think that the more you see it, the more it will be recognized and appreciated.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We'll go to Ms. Vecchio, for five minutes.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Iris, I think you're reading my mind. You talked about women in those leadership roles. We know that Cargill has female leadership. Farm Credit Canada has female leadership. I'm thinking of the Walker farms in my area. Shelley Doan does all the exporting of her Holstein cows.

I'm from 4-H, so the fact that I'm classy is funny. But it's one of those things. When we talk about those programs, I remember being in 4-H in the early eighties, and there was home economics for most of the girls. There was the beef. I actually showed a Limousin, so I was on the beef side. It was really funny, because there was that disparity. Now when I go to the 4-H shows, I find that there are a lot more women.

We talked a lot about things when it comes to whether it's going to be government or peer to peer. Having quotas is another question that I have for you too.

I'm going to start off with Iris, because I have another question for Dorothy.

Were quotas ever used in the implementation of some of these women in the higher-ranking roles in national organizations such as Cargill and Farm Credit Canada? Were those quotas, or was the selection of the person merit-based?

[Iris Meck]

Having been a token woman in 1978, I think it was always that if you could accomplish and were qualified for the position, you got it. I would like to hope that today there is the same feeling particularly in the agricultural sector. Having women's organizations in those large corporations is only making that a more viable option.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Iris, it's great that you say that. I always looked at my dad, and it didn't matter whether you were a boy or a girl, you could work on the farm. Sunday afternoon was my day to pick up the turkey eggs, wash the turkey eggs, and get them prepared to go off to P and H on Monday morning. I totally understand that. A hand is a hand, and it didn't matter. That was our role.

Dorothy, you mentioned the blind copy and potentially using that when someone is looking at resumés. It's funny that you said that, because in St. Thomas, there's a gentleman by the name of Bob Pate. His name is really Bahvan Patel, but when he came to Canada, in order to get hired, he thought it was necessary to change his name. When he went back just a few months ago, I was so proud of him, because I think one's name doesn't matter, and that's really important and critical.

What can we do? I think there is that unconscious bias. I think we do know that. Is there a process that we can put through in the private sector and other sectors so that it's not...? I'll be honest. Although I was in supply management, I'm not a quota girl. When we're looking at that, I would really like it to be merit-based. Whether it's for new immigrants or for women, what would you recommend when people are choosing to somebody to be employed?

[Dorothy Byers]

That's an excellent question. I was a quota girl in education, a little bit later than 1978, and in leadership it was the same kind of situation. I was a woman. My name was Dorothy, and some people said afterwards, “Well, you got it because they're looking for women in leadership.” That's a tough one.

When you look at competencies—and that's what I went back to, that I was the best candidate—I was the most competent candidate for this particular role. I had the vision that was going to be shared by the rest of the organization, and this was in public education. When you look at how you deal with that, you create a list of criteria and you make sure that those criteria are upheld by hiring committees so that it doesn't matter who you are. Equity, diversity, and inclusion impact everyone, male, female, culturally and in everything. It's critical to have EDI, for all of us in Canada, to make a stronger country.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That's awesome. Thank you.

I know Rachael had one more question.