Status of Women Committee on June 1st, 2017

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Not yet, but we have witnesses coming on that too.

I also really appreciated hearing you say that it's not that women are not good networkers; it's that either they aren't invited or else they've rushed home from work to pick up their kids from child care. That's helpful for us as well.

I wanted to ask some questions of the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations. We want to hear more in this study about the collateral impact of students graduating with tremendous debt, then being put into the position of part-time, precarious work, especially women who are more likely to be in the care industries, which are historically underpaid.

Can you talk a bit about what you've seen in your graduating...in the millennials who are coming forward with that triple whammy?

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

This allows me to highlight the lack of data that we currently have on this issue.

We do have a lot of data on employment, on recent graduates, and unpaid internships but with the GBA+ program, for example, we lack data that looks at them from a gender perspective in the ways that intersectional marginalization can affect these populations. We have broad data but we haven't broken that down to see what it looks like.

I can also speak from personal experience. I graduated from nursing at Mount Royal. It is incredibly difficult because when you're looking at fields dominated by women, they often also come with very significant emotional stressors. They're very laborious, not only physically but emotionally, so there is less opportunity for you to succeed as an individual if you've been set up from the very beginning with the gender wage gap, and with the lack of compensation for your practicums, for example.

I couldn't graduate without participating in a practicum. It wasn't optional for me to choose a paid or an unpaid internship. It was required of me, and it is very much like that in fields dominated by women. A lot of data show that even in these fields that primarily employ women, men still seem to rise through the ranks in leadership. In these fields that have more than gender parity, why are we still seeing men continually access more senior leadership positions?

Addressing that issue is incredibly difficult because when we look at financial aid through the Canada student loans program or Canada student grants program, for example, your assessment doesn't necessarily take into account your gender. Irrespective of whether or not you are a male or female student, if you note your child care needs in the application, both parties will still receive exactly the same amount, even though one is significantly impacted while the other is not, because the former tends to be the primary caregiver or responsible for those dependants, whether informally or formally.

We don't have the data to inform us at this point so we can move forward. That is one of our calls to action. We would like to see that program applied to existing policies, frameworks, and assistance that comes from the federal government.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Are you seeing in the cohort that you graduated in the inability to pay off student loans and be able to then invest in a home or make investments as a professional, because you've got the burden of student debt plus a low wage?

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

It depends on your situation.

For example, we see data that emphasizes that the fields that are hiring most right now are in health care. It doesn't necessarily mean that if I have a passion for a certain type of health care, I'm going to get hired into that position. It's speaking of areas where people are desperate for work. If someone engages in employment in that field, something that they haven't necessarily been passionate about or studied or is super-relevant to what they might be really successful at, it causes extra stress. You look at factors such as child care, are you in a double-income household, a single-income household, and do you have dependants?

Women are very much responsible not only for child care but are also in the sandwich generation right now. Their ability to invest in their future is hampered not only by their dependent children but by their dependent families as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

We'll now go to my colleague Mr. Serré for seven minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their presentations and preparations for today's meeting, and for their work in the field. Obviously, we can use much of the information you provided, as others have said.

My first question is for Ms. Codsi.

You spoke passionately about Bill C-25. You seemed to say that we may not be going far enough. It would be a good step forward, but work would still need to be done.

You mentioned the need for legislation to increase the percentage of women on boards and executive committees of companies. Currently, women constitute 5% of CEOs and 15% of university board members. Minister Duncan also suggested the withdrawal of funding from universities that fail to increase the quota to over 15%.

We've heard witnesses say that we must shake up the system. Quotas have been mentioned, but the idea has been rather negatively received.

You spoke of research on the topic. I really want to look further at this area.

I'm very proud that women constitute 50% of the federal government's cabinet. These women are exceptional and highly qualified.

Why do people continue to say that quotas aren't necessary to shake up the system? What research do you have to try to change this mentality and make progress? You said that France planned to have women constitute 40% of board members in 2017. In Canada, women constitute about 15% of board members.

How can we shake up the system and make radical changes to increase this rate?

[Caroline Codsi]

Thank you for the question.

I sincerely believe that one of Canada's main problems is a lack of understanding of the issues.

First, people don't understand the figures. They're always shocked. Most often, people react by telling me that equality has already been achieved, and that the only thing left to consider is the number of women in senior positions. They give me examples of the two or three women CEOs they know. They tell me that everything is settled, that everything is fine, and that things will happen on their own. Everyone thinks that things will happen naturally on their own. We must look at the progress. In seven years, we've gone from 12% to 15.9%. At this rate, we'll need 72 years to achieve parity in Canada.

At home and abroad, Canada is considered very progressive and egalitarian. However, the reality is different, and therein lies the danger. In other countries, even macho countries, the situation is better. This difference must also be noted. Spain, Italy, France and macho countries have set quotas and achieved parity.

At home, the evidence of the quotas' effectiveness is glaring. I'll give you the Charest government's figures. We must remember that Jean Charest was the first to have a gender-equal cabinet. When he formed the government, the percentage of women on the boards of 22 state-owned enterprises rose from 27.5% to 52.4%, over five years, under the Act respecting the governance of state-owned enterprises. It's obvious. The evidence is there.

There's evidence outside Canada and evidence at home, in Quebec.

However, until about two years ago, the executive committees of state-owned enterprises had almost no women members. Hydro-Québec had parity, but women constituted perhaps 10% of its executive committee members. Why? When we legislate, we have women. When we don't legislate, we have excuses. It's that clear.

Ultimately, we must tell people who don't believe in it and who think there will be incompetence that the choice must be based on equal qualifications. There's no desire to look for women who don't have the required qualifications. When the qualifications are equal, women must be favoured, to help close the gap.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[Caroline Codsi]

Also, for the studies conducted regarding the impact on financial performance, I must say that a great deal of research has been carried out. This includes the research carried out by Mercer, McKinsey & Company, Korn Ferry, Spencer Stuart, and major firms such as Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton and Ernst & Young. It's all there. The evidence is there.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Gadamsetti, you talked about students. You said there was a lack of data on the subject.

The government restored Statistics Canada's long-form census. Do you have specific examples of questions that could be added to provide accurate data on students? You spoke of transition services, which must be a priority. Do you have specific examples of items that could be added to the long form and that would provide more accurate data on youth, colleges, universities and employment?

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

Absolutely. As I had mentioned earlier, we would love to see the gender-based analysis of existing policies, for example, the Canada student loans program, the Canada student grants program, but also breaking that down by intersections. I talked about first nation students, for example. One-third of that population are parents.

At my university, one of the initiatives that we've brought forward is indigenous family housing, because indigenous students are often hesitant to enter post-secondary education because they don't have adequate child care or the opportunity or resources to necessarily support their families as well as participate in education. So anything that we can do to reduce those barriers.... That was a really helpful statistic for us to have.

So it's a matter of breaking those statistics down and using that gender-based analysis to really provide data on existing policies.

As well, we're really encouraged to see the investment in youth employment through budget 2016 and 2017. However, we'd like to see the data on those investments. We'd like to see whether those investments are really meeting the policy objectives and how can we improve those.

What we as the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations want to ask for and see is how we can better inform our students back at our campuses to pursue certain opportunities.

As well, we have lots of gaps in data when it comes to the specifics of investing in co-op and paid internships. When we saw the investment in budget 2016, for example, in co-op and paid internships, or work-integrated learning, those tend to favour existing programs, meaning those in STEM or business. But, unfortunately, those really benefit male students over female students. We'd like to see data that shows how many women are really participating in those STEM and business programs and where the gaps are that we would like to see investments made. Are we looking at physical therapy, nursing, social work, things like that, and how can we better support those students to help decrease their financial burden?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Wonderful.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We don't have time for a full second round, so my proposal is that Ms. Vecchio and Ms. Ludwig have one question each before we finish.

We'll go to Ms. Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Shifrah, I want to start—and finish—with you. When we talk about the data, we're talking about the fact that we see pay gaps and the different issues that arise with men versus women, but when you're graduating students.... I've always said, as many of us have heard, that we know that STEM fields would help women get those great jobs. From the data you have for graduates in 2016—potentially, because I was thinking there may be data from then—how many women are graduating from those fields, and are they going into those fields with regard to work?

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

I don't have the specific numbers for you today, but we can definitely follow up and provide you with them. I do know that there is a significant disparity, though. We aren't even close to critical political mass, which is what...30%? We'd like to see that increase.

There has been an increase gradually over time, but we're not at a point where we're seeing parity in those organizations or in those fields at this moment.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Ludwig.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

Thanks to all of you for your testimony this morning.

My question is also for you, Shifrah, a nurse. There are 300,000 nurses in Canada, so that's roughly 1% of the population. I'm biased now because my daughter just graduated in nursing from Dalhousie University, so it's current.

Do you see a disparity in the nursing profession itself? It is definitely dominated by women, but LPNs are now being hired in the field of health, versus RNs. We also could look at the pay discrepancy and how to get more males into the field of nursing.

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

I'll speak from my personal experience, because we don't necessarily have data at CASA on this topic, and I was very much involved with our program.

On average, you see an intake in nursing education at about 20%, and then there is an attrition rate of about 4% to 5% throughout the years. Not that many male nurses are graduating, but the interesting part about it is that those who do graduate and enter the nursing workforce tend to continually rise in leadership and, within five years, actually end up making more than their female counterparts.

Then are the opportunities in the more advanced fields of nursing—for example, the operating room, ICU, emergency, etc.—and that has a lot to do with the economic status of things, but also with the social perceptions of the field. As my colleague said, women sometimes are their own worst enemies, so there's a perception that you're coming in with a certain qualification that I may or may not have. We want to adjust those societal perceptions.

In regard to the field of nursing, I'm glad you brought up the LPN versus RN ratio. There is a significant difference in that education, not in practical skills, but in the critical thinking and the knowledge. Really promoting the critical thinking aspect of that education, both through the curriculum for LPNs and nursing educators, not only allows them to be a little bit more diversified in their qualifications, but allows them to ask questions as to why we are seeing males rise through the ranks, and not women, even though they comprise the majority of people employed in those ranks.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Can I slip in one little—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

No. We're out of time. I'm sorry.

It was great testimony. Witnesses, if there are other things you want to send us, I encourage you to do so. We would love to hear from you. After we adjourn the meeting, I'm sure Karen will have another question.

Have a great day. We're adjourned.