Status of Women Committee on Oct. 31st, 2017

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pam Damoff]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Dr. Coe. It was very helpful to our study.

With that, we're going to suspend until noon, when we have our next panel of witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're going to reconvene the meeting.

I am happy to welcome, from the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce via video conference from Toronto, Andrea Nalyzyty. She is in charge of governance and government relations, and she will have 10 minutes to speak.

Following that, we're going to hear from the West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, also by video conference, with Kasari Govender, executive director, and Zahra Jimale, director of law reform.

We're going to start with Andrea for 10 minutes.

[Andrea Nalyzyty, Vice-President, Governance and Government Relations, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today. I'm sorry I couldn't be there in person.

My name is Andrea Nalyzyty. I'm vice-president and associate general counsel, governance and government relations, at CIBC. My team and I are responsible for global regulatory affairs and government relations in all jurisdictions in which CIBC operates.

I began my career as a real estate lawyer in private practice and transitioned to financial services in the mid-1990s. Since 2000 I have worked at CIBC in a series of senior positions that have been both challenging and rewarding. After having led a skilled team of lawyers who supported personal, small business, and commercial banking, I moved to human resources. There I was responsible for employee and labour relations and all risk and control matters for CIBC HR globally. While in HR, I also took over management of our vendor contracts. A few short years later, I became our bank's chief procurement officer.

I suppose this all goes to show that you really do have to be careful when you have suggestions on how another team can enhance their performance and better serve their clients. You may just end up running that team.

I'm really proud of the career I've had so far. I know, if I'm here speaking to you, that it's partly because some things have changed in the business world, but it is also evident to me that certain things have not changed and that much more work needs to be done. While I think it is fair to say that we've made positive progress in curbing certain more overt forms of gender discrimination, there is still a lot of work to be done to challenge more unconscious forms of gender bias that impact women's participation in the workforce. I mean this not as a comment directed solely toward corporate Canada, but much more broadly throughout the Canadian economy.

Unconscious bias comes in so many forms, such as simply not considering a woman when it comes to filling certain kinds of positions. It can also mean something more systematic, such as enacting policies that unconsciously discriminate against pregnancy, or that fail to ensure flexible working arrangements for employees, primarily mothers, with children and extra family commitments. Let me be clear that I don't think these biases are most often rooted in malice. Rather, it's a lack of understanding of how certain policies impact women in the workplace. I think that is exactly why we need to talk about them more and actively design policies to guard against them.

At CIBC we have a robust gender diversity and inclusion strategy that has been in place since 2014. To support our strategy, a gender diversity and inclusion executive action committee was established, comprised of senior leaders across the organization. We focus on improving gender balance at leadership levels and on fostering an inclusive organization. Our strategy is aimed at breaking down unconscious stereotypes and biases. It is based on a few key premises—simply and most straightforwardly, that it's the right thing to do, that gender diversity is good for business, and that it helps us gain better insights into our clients' thinking and needs. It accurately reflects the world in which we operate. Research tells us that companies with more women in senior leadership positions perform better financially than those with fewer or no women in senior leadership positions.

Our programs, and I will only highlight two, have actively focused on unconscious biases and stereotypes. In partnership with Catalyst, we have posted the first “men advocating real change” program in Canada. Leaders and clients participated in a one and a half day workshop on how to better champion inclusion and achieve better gender balance at leadership levels in the organization. Three more sessions are planned before the end of 2017.

We have also provided “disrupting unconscious bias” training for leaders to influence mindsets and become more aware of and disrupt unconscious biases, supporting our leaders to leverage difference and develop and advance a diverse talent pipeline.

With respect to pay equity, CIBC complies with all federal and provincial requirements. We leverage compensation policies and programs that are bias-free. These policies and programs reflect our ongoing commitment to be proactive in providing equal opportunity wages to our employees. To help women balance work and family life, we leverage flexible work options through our CIBC@work program, including options to work from home where it makes business sense and is agreed upon by manager and employee. We have developed and strongly support progressive and leading leave policies.

Sponsorship and mentorship, which we know are two very different things, are key components of women's success in the workplace. Research shows that sponsorship is critical to professional advancement and that women are 46% less likely to have a sponsor than men.

To support women in developing sponsorship and mentorship relationships across the organization and at all levels, we created the CIBC women's network. This network delivers a variety of professional programming across the country, including networking events, speed-networking lunches, and career panels featuring various female executives and senior leaders across the organization. This network also organizes speakers' series featuring topics relevant to professional development and facilitates peer-mentoring circles.

Advancing gender diversity requires leadership, vision, and commitment. At CIBC that leadership is provided by Victor Dodig, our president and CEO. He is a strong and vocal supporter of the advancement of capable women on boards and in executive roles, and plays an active role in the business community as the chair of Catalyst Canada, an organization that works to accelerate progress for women through workplace inclusion. We have made some significant advancements. Within CIBC 41% of our board members are women, up from 31% in 2014; 30% of our executive team are women, an increase from 24% in 2014; and gender representation goals are included in our senior leaders' performance scorecards.

I do work for a bank after all, so let me close by speaking on why gender diversity is also good for business.

First, it is a demonstrable fact that organizations with more women in management and senior leadership positions are tied to stronger financial performance, including higher ROE dividend payout ratios and valuations. Companies with diverse workforces benefit from higher returns, increased innovation, and higher employee satisfaction. Gender diversity more accurately reflects the world in which we live. When you embrace gender diversity, you gain insight into your clients' thinking, you build better relationships, you have the best team, and you build a better company. When our team members realize their full potential, we benefit from increased innovation, productivity, and engagement, resulting in better economic outcomes.

On that, Madam Chair, I would like to thank the committee for engaging in this study and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move now to the West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, with Kasari Govender and Zahra Jimale.

[Kasari Govender, Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund]

Thank you for having us here today. We're very pleased to be part of this study and to have the chance to make our submissions to you.

I'll start by telling you a bit about West Coast LEAF. Then I'm going to delve into talking about the impact of access to justice and legal aid on women's economic insecurity. Then my colleague Zahra will talk to you a little bit about child care and also about pay equity. That's how we're going to split it up today.

West Coast LEAF is a women's organization. Our mandate is to end discrimination against women in B.C. through systemic legal work, including litigation, law reform, and public legal education. We have worked extensively in the areas of access to justice and child care—as I mentioned, two of the issues we're going to talk about today—including writing a number of significant research and law reform reports. We'll be addressing both of these issues today.

The systemic problems underlying women's economic inequality include the legacy of colonialism, xenophobia, and institutionalized patriarchy—some pretty big ideas. Part of this picture is the massive problem of violence against women and the impact that family violence in particular has on women's economic security. Of course, not all poverty or economic inequality stems from violence against women, but it is a key element of the causal analysis and recognizing all of these causes will help us craft solutions that work.

At this point in your study, you've heard a lot about the problems facing women in Canada in respect to economic insecurity. In our time here today, we want to focus on some of the solutions, actions that we believe Canada should be implementing today.

You've heard so many submissions that I didn't have a chance to review all of them, but from our quick review I don't think you've heard a lot about access to justice and its impact upon economic inequality. In B.C. there is a crisis in access to justice. We're not the only province facing this, but this is where we're located, so I want to tell you a little bit about the problems here.

Legal aid was gutted in B.C. in 2002, and family law in particular by 60%. Family law is highly restricted by a few different areas, but it really is only present when you are very low income, and for very few hours, to help you get a protection order when there's violence in the relationship. Those are essentially the criteria that are applied.

Why is family law legal aid important for women's economic security? Women leaving relationships without legal assistance will often sacrifice economic legal entitlements for the sake of holding on to custody and to keep themselves and their children safe in situations of violence.

Studies suggest that women's median income for the year of their separation or divorce drops by about 30%, whereas men's median income decreases by only about 6%. Studies also show that eventually men's income recovers and women's doesn't. Divorce itself is expensive. A two-day divorce trial will cost around $20,000. It is also expensive to be the parent primarily responsible for raising children, and we know women are still in that role, and to be the parent statistically making less money because of pay inequality.

All these factors together mean that having a lawyer when you're leaving a relationship will help your economic situation and will ultimately increase economic equality in the country.

This problem of access to justice—to civil justice in particular—in Canada and its impact upon women has risen to the level of international concern. CEDAW, the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, had concluding observations on Canada that came down in late 2016. They specifically recommended earmarking funds in the Canada social transfers for civil legal aid to ensure that women have access to justice in all jurisdictions, particularly focused on women victims of violence, indigenous women, and women with disabilities.

The CEDAW committee also is specifically concerned about the income test thresholds in family law, which exclude many low-income women from access to justice. We say that this further impacts their ability to be financially independent. By way of example, a woman in B.C. applying as a single woman, if she works full time on minimum wage, doesn't qualify for legal aid, so there's a huge gap between women who qualify for legal aid and women who can actually afford to get access to counsel on their own.

We echo the CEDAW committee's urging that the federal government earmark specific funds for civil legal aid in order to promote rule of law and women's safety.

We also want to add that the federal government has another role in ensuring women have access to justice post-relationship in order to promote gender-based income equality, which is through determinations of child support. We are urging the federal government to streamline the process for applying for child support in order to, hopefully, provide opportunities for women to not have to pay for counsel and to not have to go through the justice system in order to secure child support, which will ultimately decrease their legal costs and increase their income by ensuring they get access to child support when they're the only ones taking care of the children.

We are suggesting that the federal government do a consultation to figure out a better system, perhaps an administrative legal system that would impact on reducing the toll on the court system, and as I said, the need to pay for counsel.

I'm going to pass it over now to my colleague, Zahra Jimale.

[Zahra Jimale, Director of Law Reform, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund]

Thank you.

I'll be speaking to pay equity and child care. I'll start with child care.

Economic security and a poverty reduction strategy must address the adverse lifelong impacts of the disproportionate unpaid caregiving performed by women in Canada.

In 2016, West Coast LEAF did a research project looking at the impact of child care on a diverse group of women in B.C. In the resulting public report, titled “High Stakes: The impacts of child care on the human rights of women and children”, we documented the extent to which unpaid caregiving responsibilities disproportionately fall on women, and the corresponding impact on their economic security, whether they are parenting with a partner or parenting alone. In particular, when combined with the wage gap, women often become financially dependent on their partner and are at risk of deep poverty when relationships come to an end.

Lack of accessible child care creates some very practical and immediate obstacles for a woman who, as a result of relationship breakdown—or any other reason, really—must return to work or increase her hours of work while continuing to be the primary caregiver for her children. We want to see $10-a-day child care implemented in B.C., with immediate subsidies to be administered through the existing operating grant structure.

We ask that federal funding to provinces be made subject to conditions as to how it should be spent, conditions that address and prioritize the following specific concerns: prioritized access to free child care for women fleeing violence, women who need support to parent, and children awaiting kinship care placements; flexible child care services that provide a range of child care programs that accommodate work schedules outside of the usual Monday to Friday and 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. workweek; availability of childcare services and supports to all regardless of immigration status, particularly women who are fleeing violence; child care services and support that are separate from the child care protection system to ensure that women do not fear asking for assistance; availability of culturally appropriate child care for indigenous children; and fully accessible child care services for children with disabilities.

We also call on the government to enact proactive pay equity legislation.

To address economic security in a meaningful way, it is time to enact proactive federal pay equity legislation. The current complaint-based model is not effective. It does not guarantee the right to equal pay for work of equal value, a human right recognized by our government and by the international community. The wage gap is a significant barrier to economic security for women at any age, and it has both short-term and long-term consequences. The disproportionate exposure of women to poverty and associated adverse impacts, including the inability to access justice and leave abusive relationships due to lack of financial means, must be considered when discussing economic security for women.

It is time for action. The pay equity discussion has been ongoing since the 1950s. Despite the fact that it has been recognized as a human right, we still do not have federal proactive pay equity legislation in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'll remind you that you have one minute left.

Carry on.

[Zahra Jimale]

We echo the recommendations made by the pay equity task force in 2004 and call on the government to enact pay equity legislation. Such legislation would place the onus on employers to ensure pay equity, rather than placing it on individuals and unions to bring forward a complaint and spend their limited resources to pursue lengthy litigation.

[Kasari Govender]

Thank you very much for your time here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That was wonderful. Thank you very much.

We're going to get started with our rounds of questioning. I'm going to advise you that I will give everybody a one-minute warning as they're going through their questioning, just for timing.

We're going to pass it on to Sean Fraser for seven minutes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That's perfect. Thank you so much.

I'll have a few questions for both groups of witnesses here, so to the extent that you can keep your answers concise, it would be greatly appreciated.

Beginning with the CIBC, you started to mention near the end of your remarks that there has been improved performance, essentially, when there's enhanced gender equity. You mentioned as well that CIBC has seen an increase from 31% to 41%, I believe, in fairly recent history, in terms of women at the board level. Did CIBC experience that same return on investment, so to speak, when they actually took the steps to increase the number of women represented at the decision-making level?

[Andrea Nalyzyty]

Yes, that has occurred, and we're very pleased with the results. We're continuing to encourage further advancement of women, so we're not sitting on our laurels or the successes of the past. We will continue to strive for equal representation of women at the executive levels.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In terms of how CIBC has achieved this enhancement in the representation of women, or removing it from the context of CIBC, how can the federal government encourage more companies to similarly increase the representation of women? We've had a lot of discussions about a comply or explain model, and a lot of discussions about a quota system.

In your view, what has allowed CIBC to experience the success that you've outlined in your remarks?

[Andrea Nalyzyty]

A few things have been important. One is the leadership of Victor Dodig and his support of the advancement of capable women within the organization.

We've also provided tools to help women succeed within the organization. I mentioned the CIBC@work model that allows for more flexible arrangements. Those arrangements aren't exclusively used or leveraged by women. They're leveraged by men with similar types of commitments, whether elder care, child care, or other commitments. We're just making it easier for our employees to be successful and to better contribute at work.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

On the issue of leadership, you actually discussed very succinctly the importance of sponsorship over the course of a person's career, and that men are far more likely to have a sponsor to help them climb the ranks, so to speak.

I couldn't agree more that this is essential, not just for women but for anyone to succeed in his or her career. What recommendations could this committee make to the federal government that would encourage a greater level of sponsorship of women by men in power today? Essentially, how can the government encourage this kind of sponsorship in the private sector?

[Andrea Nalyzyty]

I think part of it is to show the successes of what happens when that sponsorship occurs. I don't think it's only men sponsoring women. It's women sponsoring men—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Absolutely.

[Andrea Nalyzyty]

—men sponsoring women. It's vice versa.

It's funny. I never really knew the difference between sponsorship and mentorship until a few years ago. I had a lot of mentors. To me, a mentor is somebody who provides you with advice on the sidelines, but doesn't have a vested interest in helping you in whatever you want to achieve.

A few years ago, I got a sponsor and it happened inadvertently. Somebody offered to sponsor me, and as I said, I didn't know the difference between sponsorship and mentorship. It was so different, what they were prepared to do and the commitment they were prepared to make to me, that I now have three sponsors. I actively sought them out and sought their guidance and their support.

You're not going to legislate people sponsoring other people, but I think if you show the successes, that leads to more sponsorship relationships being developed.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Wonderful.

I'd like to change gears and ask Ms. Govender some of the access to justice questions I have.

You discussed the gap between people who qualify for legal aid, living in really extreme poverty, and people who can't afford counsel. I know in budget 2016 there was about $88 million dedicated toward criminal legal aid, but on the civil side—this is something I've seen in my previous career—I know that in Alberta, if people qualify for assistance for the severely handicapped, they make too much to qualify for legal aid in that province, or at least they did a couple of years ago.

Have you identified the magnitude of the gap, the funding that would be required to really expand coverage to people who can't afford it?

[Kasari Govender]

That's a good question. We haven't done that economic analysis. In terms of the advocacy, there's certainly a lot of advocacy happening in this province around access to justice, and there is some variance in answering that question. The one organization that has put forward a concrete number is the B.C. branch of the Canadian Bar Association. I don't think it was this latest provincial election—I believe it was the one before—but it's within the last five years that they put together a plan where they did actually quantify it. It was not quite returning to the levels of 2002, which I believe is when the cuts were made, but it was fairly close, adjusting for inflation, of course.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sorry, do you mind if I jump in? I have just about a minute and a half left.

One of the things that I think we can promote to help close this gap that shouldn't be too expensive is really embracing the notion of corporate social responsibility. I know there are certain pilot programs in different cities—really where there are a lot of big firms—that allow them to contribute pro bono hours towards billable targets, for example.

Do you think this is a helpful way to provide pro bono legal services to people in need? If so, what at the federal level can we do to encourage people with the human resources and expertise to essentially donate their time to people in need?

[Kasari Govender]

I would urge the federal government to focus on legal aid as opposed to pro bono. I say that with no disregard for pro bono. It's actually a really important part of the access to justice picture, but I think we have a very robust pro bono culture in the bar in Canada. There is more that can be done, but I don't think that's where the problem lies. The problem lies—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much. I have one more quick question.

I'm just curious about your view of the reinstatement of the court challenges program. Is this going to help groups like yours and other access to justice organizations across the country conduct systemic litigation that will improve gender equality in Canada?

[Kasari Govender]

Absolutely. We are very pleased at the renewal of the court challenges program. It is, as you know, focused on systemic change, so it doesn't address directly these issues of change on the ground. West Coast LEAF is bringing litigation against the provincial government right now on systemic change on exactly this issue, and it will help us do that.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you. That's my time.