Status of Women Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I would like to thank all the panellists.

We are running out of time because we have to go into business, if you don't mind. I'd really like to thank you, Justine, Deputy Wilson, Anik, and Nancy for coming and giving us your expertise. We really do appreciate it.

We are going to move on to some business. There are some different issues that we need to bring forward.

We would like to vote on the supplementary estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), the committee will now dispose of the supplementary estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2018.

OFFICE OF THE CO-ORDINATOR, STATUS OF WOMEN Vote 1b—Operating Expenditures..........$2,997,343

(Vote 1b agreed to)

We're going to continue on.

Tuesday was a bit crazy for us. We are working with both the clerk and the analysts to make sure we have the opportunity to see those panellists once again because it's very important. We recognize that there was only a short period of time—I believe nine minutes—during which we were able to receive answers, and of course we didn't get to the final panel at all. We are looking at that so we can move forward and make sure they're part of our study and part of our witnesses.

Moving forward, it has been brought to my attention by our clerk that, unfortunately, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada has indicated they are not going to come for our study on indigenous women. This is going to be a bit of an issue, so I want to work with you on this. I'm putting on my hat to say that I think it's really important that we have them here at the table, but I want to hear how we as a committee would like to move forward on this to make a request from the committee for them to appear, because at this point, they have denied us.

I'm going to pass it to the clerk to provide a couple of options as to how we can proceed, and then we can decide how we will proceed with this.

Ms. Harder, do you have a question?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No, sorry, after the clerk speaks will be fine.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Marie-Hélène Sauvé]

Just as a bit of a clarification, when I spoke with my contact at parliamentary affairs at Indigenous and Northern Affairs, they mentioned that it was their opinion that there were other departments that were in a better position to answer the committee's questions, so given that information, it would be up to the committee to see if we want to move forward, perhaps by way of a motion, to request that someone appear to answer questions.

Another option is that we could hear from a number of witnesses and then perhaps invite them again later in the study if there are still questions to be asked.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Rachael.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Are they recommending then which department would be better able to answer our questions?

[The Clerk]

I have asked the question and I'm waiting for an answer from them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Pam.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm wondering if it's clear. Sometimes you go to one person and it's not clear exactly what we're looking for, and therefore, it doesn't get to the right person. Is there any benefit in talking to them specifically about what we're looking for? Perhaps you've already done that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's where I was hoping you would come in, Pam, and perhaps also speak to the minister on that, to show the importance of this.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

For sure, I will. I'm just wondering, because we need to have them here. In terms of when, I actually don't know when the best time is, and whether we should hear from some witnesses first and then hear from them, or whether it would make some sense for us to get a sense of what some of the issues might be and then bring them in to be able to formulate questions based on testimony. I'm open on that one.

I will give the chair and the committee my commitment to go back and speak to the department and the minister to try to encourage that. I'm just wondering what the committee thinks. Do we want to hear from some witnesses first?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'll move right back to you, Sheila.

One of the things, when we're looking at making up the panels, is the fact that a lot of times we have government departments and agencies. We've slated them in for particular times. I don't know if it would be an appropriate use of time to have just one group come forward. I think that's a big important part of our discussion.

Sheila.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Which department of the two indigenous-related departments was asked? That's one question.

Insofar as moving forward goes, if all we've done is invited them, then I definitely want us to be on record as requesting that they attend. My understanding is that's ordinarily something that is honoured. I would hope they would see our terms of reference at the time of the invitation so they know the scope of what we might be asking of them.

Absolutely, I'm happy to work with a time that works for those departmental officials. I agree that there is some merit in our hearing from people on the front lines and inside of the justice system before we hear from the departmental representatives, so I'm happy to be flexible, but absolutely we need them to be with us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you.

Rachael.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I would echo what Sheila just said.

Some of our recommendations from this report, I would imagine, are going to go forward to this department, so it would seem appropriate that they come here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Please go ahead

[The Clerk]

Just to answer a few questions, I have been in contact with mainly a parliamentary affairs person at Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada. Both the analyst and I have been in contact with them to explain to them the terms of reference of the study, so they are aware of what it is exactly that we're studying.

What they've been telling me is that they are having a hard time identifying a specific person within either branch of the department to appear before the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I understand that we do have a couple of options as well, and I think it's up to the committee how we would like to proceed. We can do a letter from the committee to say once again that we are requesting this, or there can also be a letter from the chair. It seems that we have consensus that we want them here, with the variable being at what point in the study.

How would we like to proceed?

Go ahead, Sean.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Correct me, Sheila, if I'm wrong. I think your suggestion was to say that if they're flexible and they could come later, we could hear from a couple of witnesses. That would give Pam time to make good on her undertaking to speak to the minister or the department and revisit this issue maybe over the next couple of meetings. I think everybody thinks we should get them here. If we can add a little ammunition to our request by hearing testimony and then saying that we heard X, Y, and Z, and we want the department's perspective, I think that would be a prudent approach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome.

Pam.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I would just say that if you look strictly at the terms of reference of our study, we're talking about justice and corrections, and they don't administer justice and they don't administer corrections. Our study is broader than that, though, in terms of access to justice. Those are the kinds of things that certainly would.... I'll explain that to them, because we also want to make sure that we get the right person here. They're not administering justice or the corrections part of it, so that doesn't fall within their area; it's more the before and after. I can explain that to the minister and make sure they can bring someone here who will be helpful for what we're looking at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Great.

Sheila.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

So that we don't lose momentum or eat up more committee time on this, I'm going to propose that we give a little bit of time to proceed as Vice-Chair Damoff has suggested, but that we put a motion on the floor directing the chair to request, on the committee's behalf, that the department appear. I'm going to propose that we say by December 14. If we haven't had an answer in the affirmative, then the chair would go ahead and formalize our request.

With that, I move that the committee request that status of women committee Chair Vecchio write to—is it still Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada or do we name the two?

[The Clerk]

We can identify that. We probably should name the two just to be on the safe side.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

It's a request that Indigenous Affairs and Crown-Indigenous Relations appear before the committee to assist us with this study on indigenous women's access and experience in the justice and corrections system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Go ahead, Pam.