Status of Women Committee on Dec. 7th, 2017

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

If it's the only option, I would say yes, but I would definitely look more towards community options.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Then, with indigenous people involved themselves, could you explain how you would see that model?

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

With indigenous people...?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're talking about solutions outside of a prison structure. How would you involve indigenous women, in the sense of resolving that problem with those who have challenges?

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

This would be where all the great work that Madame Picard does comes in. They would come in and would actually host section 81 or section 84 agreements, through which they have some of the resources in place to facilitate, to see, to host indigenous women.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

From your point of view, it's not your expertise. You have done a lot of studies—you have studied the institutions—but I was looking for examples you might have of keeping that from happening.

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

Do you mean women going into prisons?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Yes.

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

It would be the front-end strategies of basic resources. When we went into communities, there wasn't running water or there wasn't food. How can you expect people to thrive, if they don't even have some of those basic needs?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're going back to developing the social determinants of health, in a sense, as a basis beforehand to keep from their being involved with the institutions.

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

Yes. It's all three areas. First is social determinants. Second is to mitigate it. Third is community options such as those Madame Picard is involved in.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Right. Okay.

Let's go to Quebec.

You have mentioned involving indigenous staffing. It's a term you used. Where would you see this? You have talked about the use of it.

[Véronique Picard]

I was not talking about indigenous staff. As for external resources, I really liked what Ms. Chartrand said, that the community could take charge. However, the necessary resources are required. The community has to be able to take that kind of responsibility, of providing resources and support, but it also has to have the resources it needs in order to do so. That means human and financial resources. As well, they need housing, which some communities lack completely.

Other priorities cannot get in the way, essential needs like housing, for example. In a number of ways, the community can be involved. I am thinking of healing lodges. The same formula can be adopted, but in the communities, with appropriate, culturally sensitive services. We might think of sharing circles, for example.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

But that goes back to my question, in the sense of “who”.

Maybe it was the interpretation, because I wrote down that “indigenous staffing” was something that was said. It was maybe the translation and it was not what you meant.

I'm going to the “who”. Who were the critical pieces to...?

You've outlined great big ideas, and I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Yes, we're out of time, so maybe we can get back to that question.

We are now going to move over to Sheila Malcolmson for her seven minutes.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses.

I'm hoping that you can paint a picture for us that starts even earlier, of the factors that are bringing indigenous women into the justice system and into incarceration in the first place. Then, what is the collateral damage for their extended families? How can that perpetuate more interactions with the justice system and the penal system?

I'm elected in British Columbia. We have terrible stories, again and again, of trauma, including sexual abuse, which can set women apart who are living in poverty in B.C. Many of them are indigenous and are vulnerable because of the economic injustice that puts them into situations that are less safe. Because of trauma, this maybe gets them into addiction, which can exacerbate interactions with the criminal justice system.

Can you talk more about that history and the cycle of violence we're seeing, which can affect the next generation as well?

That's to both witnesses, Vicki Chartrand from Bishop's University, and Véronique Picard from Quebec Native Women.

[Véronique Picard]

That was a long question and I am not sure I fully understood it.

In terms of putting an end to the cycle of violence, I think it always comes back to resources and support. More and more, we are talking to women in our communities and we are encouraging them to break the silence surrounding the cycle of violence, which was born of a violent past. The first step is to talk about it, and we are doing that more and more. But the lack of resources, either in the communities, outside them, or in urban settings, remains a problem. Many of our women live in Montreal and have access to very few resources. I believe that the basic problem is the lack of available resources and funding. There are a lot of other difficulties, meaning that we put the major problem to one side. It includes a number of things and has to be seen holistically. That is first and foremost what needs to be tackled, in my opinion.

Earlier, we were talking about the communities and the people we could turn to. I think it is important to communicate with the communities. Some of them are quite capable of providing resources and guidance of this kind. Others would be capable, but, for some services, they are lacking human and financial resources. In the cities, the situation is exactly the same. Moreover, as the women there are very isolated, they are in more danger of suffering some forms of violence. Even when those women are victims, the police can treat them with a lot of discrimination. So a certain mistrust develops.

My position is that everything revolves around the services and the resources to which indigenous women have access, whether they are in their communities or in the cities.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Maybe I can refine my question just a bit more. This is early in our study. If you could paint a picture of that cycle of violence, we will move to try to identify ways we can interrupt it. Just give us a picture. How are women going into this system, and are they any better when they come out of it?

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

I was talking to a friend of mine back in B.C. She is a Carrier Sekani woman. Her sister is in prison for murder right now. I'll walk you through that story.

Their history is that the father was abusive. They lived with a fairly abusive family. The mother drank quite a bit. The mother has cancer now, so they're at risk of losing their mother. Her sister drinks, and her partner was abusive as well. At some point, she had two of her children taken away, which escalated a lot of the drinking. One night, they were out drinking and possibly using drugs, and they got into a fight. What ended up happening.... She had a penknife on her and she—no, her friend was there with her, and the boyfriend got stabbed. She was arrested. She didn't want to talk to a lawyer, because she didn't want to have to think about and relive that night, so there's no chance of her looking at self-defence, provocation, or anything like that. She is going to spend the rest of her life in jail. She will be given a life sentence. It's a very quick trajectory, but this is very common.

Then you can talk about the over-policing that goes on within the indigenous communities, the lack of sensitivity. It's endless. It would almost be worthwhile for you to just spend a day “in the life of”, go into communities or even go into prisons and just talk to people and hear their experiences. That would be so valuable.

I've been refused from prisons, but prisons can't refuse judges and parliamentarians, so I would really encourage you to go to a prison. Go into a maximum-security prison. Go see what it feels like. It's intense.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can either of you talk about the federal responsibility? Sometimes these are provincial jails, but given that it's indigenous women, do we have a special role on the federal side?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

A very short answer....

[Prof. Vicki Chartrand]

In the CCRA, they do. I forget the section; I think it's section 33. They have to actually provide cultural sensitivity to indigenous people at the federal level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We are now going to move on to Eva Nassif for her seven minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for your presentations.

Have you worked with indigenous women, or can you refer us to some testimony from people who have worked with them after they leave prison?

[Véronique Picard]

Actually, when we are talking about life experiences or stories of everyday life, either about incarceration or problems with the justice system, with a number of indigenous women, it does not go up to the time they are incarcerated. That said, yes, we do talk to them.

Women who have been part of the system contact us, whether they are convicted, accused, or victims. So yes, we have experience with those women. We also have a lot of contacts with more front-line organizations, those dealing directly with homeless women, for example, or with women stuck in the justice system.