Status of Women Committee on Dec. 7th, 2017

[Jonathan Rudin]

There are two problems. One is whether that would be funded, because currently our funding is to provide Gladue reports to the courts, not to parole.

The second issue is how you get the information about how someone has worked through the prison system. Where is that information going to come from? How will someone external to the CSC be able to interview the people they need to interview to get that information?

I don't think it is an insurmountable question. Certainly, we would be happy to be involved in discussions about how to make it work, but we haven't had any of those discussions.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In cases where there has been a Gladue report, is there a reason that it cannot just be given to the Parole Board? The work is already done.

[Jonathan Rudin]

Certainly, it could be. The difficulty is that the person, if they're in the federal system, will have had at least two, three, four, five, six, or seven years in the institution. What becomes so important at the parole process is what the person has done while they've been inside and also what their plans are when they get released. The development of that will not have been set out in the Gladue report if the assumption was that the person was going to the penitentiary in the first place.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think Ms. Yuen made the point as well that it sets you on a different course. I'm sure five or seven years in an institution would change you. You'd be a different person on the back end from what you were going in.

I think both Ms. Yuen and you could potentially speak to or did speak to this issue. We heard about the phenomenal results that healing lodges can have for a person, in terms of lowering the rates of recidivism and in rehabilitation.

One comment we heard during our last meeting was that there's not a big enough population of female indigenous offenders, in certain parts, to justify a whole new healing lodge. How can we expand the services offered, if not by way of a Correctional Services lodge, to give universal access to this kind of program, if we know it's working? Is the answer the community-based program funding?

[Prof. Felice Yuen]

I certainly think that partnerships and collaboration with local community is important. That could get around some of the.... I think that with the big prison, the big numbers, working together doesn't work. It's the smaller, personalized services that would work, and these community-based organizations would have the knowledge to create the supports and services.

[Jonathan Rudin]

The other point, though, is that one of the issues—and I think one of the last speakers mentioned this—is the classification of indigenous women. They are over-classified as maximum security. Indigenous women are 42% of the women who are classified as max. The difficulty with healing lodges is that you can't get into them until you're minimum. It's not that there aren't people. It's that there aren't people who are eligible, because they can't get themselves down to minimum by the time their sentence is close to being up.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I have probably less than a minute to go. To our guests from the Women of the Métis Nation, thank you. So much of your testimony applies not just to Métis people, but to indigenous women generally.

You mentioned the importance of consultation with people, those with lived experience, who are incarcerated. It is a difficult thing for us to bring an incarcerated person here, of course. Is there someone we can be getting information from, a resource, so that we can understand the lived experience and how this study might impact them?

[Melanie Omeniho]

I know that there are indigenous community organizations that are working with indigenous women. I'm sure that if you reached out to them, such as Native Counselling Services—I believe Dr. Patti LaBoucane has actually presented to this committee already—they have people they work with daily to ensure that you would be able to.... I understand that we can't take people out of the prisons to bring them here, but people who have already left those institutions certainly would have an ideal insight into this.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks to all three of you.

Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're now going to move on for seven minutes with Martin Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate the panel and the insights you bring. I just need a bit of clarification.

Sir, you mentioned that the programming does not apply to all, but then you mentioned something about a program for all indigenous in Toronto, so I'm a little confused.

[Jonathan Rudin]

Let me try to clarify. The concern I had was that CSC's indigenous programming is only available to indigenous women who are interested in participating in the Pathways program, which is basically the cultural orientation program.

What I mentioned is that there is a program that we are helping with that has not yet been funded by CSC. It's an attempt to put specific parole beds and also a healing lodge in the Toronto area. It's not funded yet, but the organizers for that program, whom I spoke to before I came here, made it clear that it would be open to all indigenous women.

We take indigenous women as they are and work with them in terms of their needs and provide them the resources they need. We wouldn't require them to say that they want necessarily to go the traditional route or another route.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You said the programs are there, but they don't fit all. Is that right?

[Jonathan Rudin]

Right.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're very clear on that. It's because there are some differences in the large geographic country we have. Do you believe that they can, within one program, provide enough paths for the variety in this program?

[Jonathan Rudin]

The focus needs to be on the needs of the individual women, but also recognizing that they are indigenous. Indigenous women, as you heard—it was touched on here, and you heard in your previous panel—share many issues. The reason they come before the justice system and are in the prisons is that they share a number of experiences. Programs can be developed to address those experiences, although the ways in which people will then deal with some of those experiences may differ.

You certainly can, however, provide a program for all indigenous women to talk about the impacts of violence or the impacts of residential school. That shouldn't rely on someone's saying, “I want to go to this Pathways program.” It shouldn't be the only place that people get access to those sorts of programs.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I appreciate that clarification.

Now, is this something that's just being started, or is it something that's been working for a period of time?

[Jonathan Rudin]

The Pathways program is something that CSC has been doing for a while.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

No, I mean the new one you're talking about.

[Jonathan Rudin]

It's not funded yet. CSC's ability to do outreach and actually work with communities to set up programs.... They don't have a great track record. Ms. Yuen talked about the funding issue. CSC is trying to do better, but we'll have to see whether they actually do better.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

At some point, somebody may fund this program, then there may be an evaluation, and then there may be a replication, if it proves positive.

[Jonathan Rudin]

Yes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're hopeful, though, that it will work.

[Jonathan Rudin]

I have no doubt that it will work, but the question is whether it will ever be funded.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Can it be replicated?