Evidence of meeting #85 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anne Kelly  Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Suzanne Brisebois  Director General, Policy and Operations, Parole Board of Canada
Angela Connidis  Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Margaret Buist  Director General, Children and Families Branch, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Mary-Luisa Kapelus  Director General, Strategic Policy, Planning and Information, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Kelley Blanchette  Deputy Commissioner for Women, Correctional Service of Canada
Michelle Van De Bogart  Acting Chief Operating Officer, Parole Board of Canada
Donald Meikle  Executive Director, Saskatoon Downtown Youth Centre Inc.
Lisa Lalande  Executive Lead, Not-for-Profit Research Hub, Mowat Centre
Joanne Cave  Senior Policy Associate, Not-for-Profit Research Hub, Mowat Centre
Adam Jagelewski  Director, Center for Impact Investing, MaRS Discovery District

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner for Women, Correctional Service of Canada

Dr. Kelley Blanchette

I'll give you something to think about.

Anne referenced the triage we do, but the intent behind it is to identify everyone at intake who may have a cognitive impairment. Then there's a further, more in-depth assessment. It's not necessarily a diagnosis, although we have in the past provided funding to external agencies with expertise to come in and diagnose any cases of suspected FASD.

That said, in terms of our ability to deliver programs, etc., within the institution, as soon as we know that there's a cognitive impairment, a functional assessment is done to determine how we can meet that offender's needs, so really, at the end of the day, I'm not certain that the diagnosis per se is required, as long as we can adapt to meet that offender's needs.

The example that you gave, Anne, was about the adapted program. That's one example.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Something else is the availability 24-7 of medical services. Certainly at the Edmonton Institution for Women it's 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., so if somebody is sick or has mental health issues after those hours, it's quite expensive and cumbersome, and that is a result of trying to deliver programs with a reduced budget.

Do you see the benefit of having 24-7 mental health and general health services within the facilities?

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner for Women, Correctional Service of Canada

Dr. Kelley Blanchette

Yes. Right now, if there's an urgent need after hours, then we do have on-call service. We also have some partnerships with local hospitals, but of course having someone on site would be beneficial.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Regarding vacancies on the Parole Board, we heard a lot about that when we were out there.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

You have 10 seconds.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Okay, then I probably don't have time to ask you. Should we fill them as quickly as possible?

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Policy and Operations, Parole Board of Canada

Suzanne Brisebois

The board is actually in the process. A number of board members were recently appointed, and progress is being made by the government, I think, led by PCO, with respect to board member—

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move over to Sheila for the last three minutes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you, Chair.

To Public Safety, we don't yet have an answer on the inquiry's request that a national police task force be established to investigate unsolved cases of murdered and missing women.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

I'll pass that question to Margaret Buist, who is leading the response on the interim report.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Children and Families Branch, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Margaret Buist

Thanks. I'm leading the response for Minister Bennett under the Crown-Indigenous Relations department.

The government has been reviewing the recommendations since they came out. There were very helpful interim recommendations and very extensive interim recommendations, so we've been taking a good look at those, in particular the one about the national police task force. We're preparing options and we're looking at the recommendations, and the government hopes to have a response to those recommendations very soon.

I also understand the inquiry is intending to have institutional hearings, which will involve asking the government questions around things like policing. We're looking forward to those as well.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you very much.

To Correctional Service of Canada, the annual report that I referred to in my previous round recommended that transferring mentally ill women in the Pacific region to the all-male regional treatment centre be absolutely and explicitly prohibited. Has that recommendation been adopted already, and if not, why not?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

I was the regional deputy commissioner in the Pacific region, and it did happen on occasion. It's only in an emergency situation and it's only for short periods of time that we do this.

The reason we do it is that at that point, the woman is seen by a psychologist or a psychiatrist she knows well. She has her case management team and her parole officer and probably her family is there, so to take the woman and transfer her to the the Regional Psychiatric Centre on the Prairies or to Pinel Institute in Quebec is very disruptive.

What we have done now, though, is that in policy, the placement will only be—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Can I just note that the recommendation was also that it could be to a local external or community psychiatric hospital as required? The investigator did not recommend sending people to another part of the country.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

Yes, and we certainly explore options for partnerships to be able to send women to psychiatric centres in the community, absolutely.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

So the practice has not been prohibited since that recommendation in June?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

That's correct?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

I don't believe we have any right now.

4:25 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner for Women, Correctional Service of Canada

Dr. Kelley Blanchette

No, the practice hasn't been prohibited. That said, as Anne was saying, I know that our assistant commissioner of health services has been very engaged in trying to carve out those partnerships with provincial psychiatric hospitals, including on the west coast.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Excellent. Thank you very much.

This has been an incredible round of questioning, and we've received a lot of great information. I'd really like to thank the Correctional Service of Canada, the Parole Board of Canada, the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

If I were to identify each of you, we'd be here for another hour, but thank you very much.

We're now going to take a two-minute suspension and return with our next panel.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We're returning for our next set of panels.

Today I would like to welcome Donald Meikle from the Saskatoon Downtown Youth Centre Inc., Lisa Lalande and Joanne Cave from the Mowat Centre, and, from the MaRS Discovery District, Adam Jagelewski.

Thank you very much for being here. Today we're going to start off with seven-minute presentations from each organization. We'll start with the Saskatoon Downtown Youth Centre.

4:30 p.m.

Donald Meikle Executive Director, Saskatoon Downtown Youth Centre Inc.

Thank you.

Like you, I also have many questions on the investment in indigenous women in our correctional institutions, and actually poverty as a whole.

Historically with government, there's no problem investing in highways, infrastructure, health care, or social services, but no one really wants to talk about investing in our most vulnerable population. We are sinking billions of dollars into trying to eliminate an issue such as homelessness, but no one wants to talk about the issue of how we treat young people and prepare them for independence.

A recent study has shown that 60% of homeless people had child and family services involvement, but they make up only 3% of the population. It often reminds me of the story of the two people pulling dead bodies from a river. They stood strong, pulling bodies day after day, until an elder happened to walk by and asked them what they were doing. They explained what they were doing and how hard they were working. The elder looked at them and asked, “Has anyone gone upstream to find out why all these bodies are coming down in the first place?” When we're looking at indigenous women issues, we still continually look downstream.

I've been working with this population for the past 25 years. When I started, we had children as young as seven working in the sex trade. No one tried to assist the families until it would hit the newspaper. Then the Ministry of Social Services would swoop in, remove the child, and put the child in an institution until they turned 16. It is now 2018, and some things have changed, but how government does business and how they treat this population has not.

In our society we have come through and continue to come through some very dark times for indigenous people. There were the residential schools and the sixties scoop, and now they are continuing to place our children in protective services institutions, taking away their liberties, punishing them for being victims of circumstances beyond their control. In Saskatchewan they have resurrected orphanages by putting babies and infants in 14-bed group homes. We are raising yet another generation of children with abandonment issues who will grow up with no ability to form relationships and who will not know how to bond.

These current practices are expensive and damaging to children and their families. These practices create the conduit to a life of dysfunction into further poverty and institution-based care, such as our correctional facilities. The sad truth to this is that assisting them to become contributing citizens is cheaper and has more of a positive impact on the long-term cycle being broken.

I have a couple of theories to share and ask that you come to your own opinions.

Indigenous and poor people are a huge industry. Jobs in helping and correction professions create a large middle-class labour market that is supposed to serve and protect this population. In my 25 years' experience, I have met many dedicated individuals in government who want to create a better life for those less fortunate, but I often shake my head. Looking at it from an indigenous perspective, they see the government doing the same thing over and over even though it isn't working. This often leaves a further sense of mistrust and hopelessness.

Individuals who experience the current system feel if they were to work on solutions to eradicate the issue, the problem would be gone, and so might their jobs. Can it help you to understand how those less fortunate believe nothing is being done or being put into changing cycles for poor people?

When serving this population, community-based organizations and their clients are expected to achieve desired outcomes in a set period of time. Often trauma, previous abuse issues, addictions, and mental health prolong this person's inability to achieve the desired outcome.

For a moment I would like to turn the tables and ask these bureaucrats why they are not sharing their outcomes and possible ramifications if they are not being met. How did the meaning of what is public service become less important than trying not to embarrass the government of the day?

As politicians, are you guys asking the right questions of individuals tasked with making recommendations and bringing them forward to government? May I suggest a few questions?

What are the communities saying? What are the families saying? What are the outcomes you are trying to achieve? Are these outcomes realistic and achievable? How can we support initiatives as government?

I'm here today to speak about our experience as the first organization in Canada to do a social impact bond. This bond was investing in keeping mothers and children together and out of the child welfare system.

The bond was simple, the math was straightforward, the outcomes were achievable, and it provided an opportunity for us to show that with support and guidance, mothers with children can change and desire a better life for themselves and their children.

The idea for this project with the social impact bond didn't come from government. It began a year earlier with Carolyn Schur, who was doing a study on sleep disorders in high school. After completing her studies, she came to the result that young persons didn't have sleep disorder: they just had nowhere to sleep. This lady began with putting $50,000 of her own money into a solution. We started a small group to work together to look for solutions. What began as a community response blossomed into what we have today.

Our first investors became interested not to make money but because they could see the difference an investment can make and they could see where their money was being spent.

The then Minister of Social Services, June Draude, proposed the bond as a way to invest in our vulnerable population. We've worked hard to create deliverables that in the end benefit those we serve. We provide an extended continuum of care that enables mothers and their families to stay together. We support young mothers to become educated and successfully employed. We foster independence and self-reliance in young women and their children.

The bond strengthened integrated partnerships within the community, as well as with Connexus Credit Union, the Mahs, private and corporate donors, the Government of Saskatchewan, and the Government of Canada.

The expectation of the bond was that in five years, we were going to have 22 children leaving the program and remaining out of care for a minimum of a six-month period. If these outcomes could be achieved, the bond would pay for itself.

Since June 1, 2013, Sweet Dreams has supported 39 high-risk mothers and 54 children; 33 of these mothers maintain custody of their children to date.

Five mothers and nine children currently reside at Sweet Dreams, and two of the mothers are currently attending the University of Saskatchewan.

I know I'm not going to have time to go into some of the stories of the kids who come into the program and their successes, so I did make a couple of copies if anybody is interested.

In addition to this, we've created an additional four bedrooms and an 18-space child care centre attached to Sweet Dreams. The Mahs, one of the initial investors, are donating back their half a million dollars plus interest so that we can do more for the mothers and the children in need.

In closing, I'd like to say a couple of things.

Investment in indigenous women creates hope for the future and will go a long way in helping keep women out of our institutions. We need to begin to create prevention programs that start at birth and work hard to keep family units together.

Child and family programs need to reflect an industry based on people's futures and a life after being in care. We need to ask these women what they need and how government and the communities they live in can make the difference.

The task seems daunting, but so does doing the same thing over and over again, because it isn't working. Let's start by going upstream to tackle the issue.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Lisa and Joanne from the Mowat Centre.

4:40 p.m.

Lisa Lalande Executive Lead, Not-for-Profit Research Hub, Mowat Centre

Thank you.

There's some really cool stuff happening in your province. Thanks for sharing that.

Good afternoon, honourable committee members. My name is Lisa Lalande. I'm the executive lead for the Mowat Centre's not-for-profit research hub. I am joined by my colleague, senior policy associate Joanne Cave.

Mowat NFP is a research arm of the Mowat Centre, which is an independent public policy think tank located at the School of Public Policy and Governance at the University of Toronto.

Mowat NFP focuses on applied policy research relevant to systemic issues facing the non-profit and charitable sector, both in Ontario and across Canada. Our research agenda looks at how this sector can be effective in creating thriving communities and improving the well-being of Canadians. We examine issues such as sector labour reform, finance and funding, data, and legislation and regulation from a systems lens, looking at how individual issues are connected to and impacted by each other as a collective whole. More recently this has translated into research on measuring outcomes and impact, looking at what is needed to better understand and evaluate which interventions are working and which aren't.

Many people participate in programs or services without any significant or lasting impact because those programs fail to address the root causes: violence, trauma, hunger, illness, and poverty. These root causes are historical and complicated and cannot be isolated and tackled individually. Applying a systems lens to the concept of impact recognizes that the social and environmental issues the sector works to address are highly interconnected.

We understand that a social impact bond is one tool being considered to address the proportion of indigenous women in Canada's criminal justice system. While we cannot speak to the experience of indigenous women in the criminal justice system, we will focus on the challenge of understanding impact and how government funding can be used to support the best results possible.

Selecting and measuring outcomes is often the most challenging aspect of a social impact bond contract. Given that, our presentation will advance two key recommendations: the establishment of a Canadian What Works Centre, a unique type of evidence institution that is proven to be successful in the U.K. and the U.S.A., and the creation of a national outcomes fund, a vehicle that could provide capital to invest in proven interventions and explore innovative approaches. Our briefing note complements this presentation by outlining several key considerations for implementing a social impact bond.

Why build the evidence base? Governments are increasingly facing greater scrutiny about how funds are spent, what outcomes are achieved with those funds, and how evidence of what works is driving the policy-making process. A strong evidence base is an important component of readiness for outcomes-based funding arrangements. This is particularly important for social impact bonds, which rely on proven, tested programs and interventions to attract investors. High-quality evidence is required to assess community needs, select appropriate interventions, define outcomes, and clarify how they will be measured.

Evidence institutions are organizations that possess the technical expertise to review and produce robust policy research as a resource to the public and to policy-makers. While Canada has existing research expertise, we have very few evidence institutions that focus specifically on indigenous criminal justice issues.

What Works Centres emerged in the U.K. and are one type of evidence institution that could be adopted in the Canadian context. What Works Centres are typically independent from government. They are unique from other evidence institutions because they focus on engaging end-users of evidence—for example, front-line staff or beneficiaries. What Works Centres put end-users at the centre of the process, and they often shape how the evidence is collected, interpreted, and used.

For example, the U.K. What Works Centre for Crime Reduction focuses on how front-line police officers understand new evidence about policing and change their own behaviours as a result. Another What Works centre in the U.K., the Centre for Ageing Better, puts the perspectives of seniors first when developing their research agenda. In doing so, centres use citizen input to ensure that the programs and services address what matters to them. This in turn results in cost savings for governments and funders because resources are allocated more effectively.

Our research indicates that a What Works Centre, co-led with existing indigenous organizations and research centres, has the potential to make a significant difference on issues such as this one. Using this model, indigenous stakeholders could co-lead the organization's governance model, co-design the research agenda, and define what outcomes and impacts could look like.

But who pays for this—the exploration of new approaches and the scaling of proven ones?