Evidence of meeting #87 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prison.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ivan Zinger  Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Marie-France Kingsley  Acting Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Claire Carefoot  Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
Ruth Martin  Clinical Professor, School of Population and Public Health and Collaborating Centre for Prison Health and Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Mary Fayant  Elder, As an Individual
Chas Coutlee  As an Individual
Odessa Marchand  As an Individual
Mo Korchinski  Program Coordinator, Unlocking the Gates Peer Health Mentor Program, Collaborating Centre for Prison Health and Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Ruth ScalpLock  As an Individual

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We're going to commence. I recognize that all parties are not represented here, but due to the fact that we have such limited time, I think we need to get right to work because we do have some committee business as well.

Today it's wonderful to have the Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada here today, with Ivan Zinger and Marie-France Kingsley.

Thank you very much for joining us.

They're going to start by presenting a 10-minute deck to us. It will be a little over the time, but there's a lot of excellent information in it.

I am going to pass it over to you right now for the 10 minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Ivan Zinger Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and real privilege to be here. I have to say this is the first time that my office has appeared before this committee, so we want to make sure that you have a comprehensive briefing of women in federal corrections.

We'll do it in two parts. We'll provide an overview and then dive into more specific issues that you are looking at, which is federally sentenced women of indigenous background.

I'm accompanied by Marie-France Kingsley.

Ms. Kingsley is the acting executive director of my office. She has a lot of experience with investigations, and she has been managing the portfolio regarding women and regarding mental health for years now.

I'm going to ask her to just give you a very brief overview of the role and mandate of my office, and then I will dive into more of the specifics.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Marie-France Kingsley Acting Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

You have before you the overview of the presentation, but I won't go through all of that. Instead, I will briefly present the office's mandate.

You have before you our mission statement. Essentially, our office acts as the ombudsman for federally sentenced offenders. We conduct investigations on individual and systemic concerns of offenders in Canada.

Here are some numbers for context. We have a budget of $4.3 million, and we have 36 full-time employees. In the financial year that just ended, the staff members tasked with investigations spent 361 days visiting Canadian institutions.

We have handled almost 7,000 complaints from offenders, which represents slightly more than 2,000 interviews with either offenders or Correctional Service of Canada staff. We also studied the use of force. In fact, we reviewed 1,436 of those cases in the last financial year.

We have reviewed 119 deaths in custody and serious bodily injuries. We have received over 22,000 calls to our toll-free number, which represents slightly more than 1,600 runtime hours.

As you can see, we are very busy.

I'll now let Mr. Zinger continue.

3:45 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

Let me provide you a brief overview. I'll go through the slides fairly quickly.

There are approximately 700 women incarcerated in federal corrections facilities and another 700 who are serving their remaining federal sentences in the community. That's a fifty-fifty split, which is better than male split of about sixty-forty. I will highlight, however, that with respect to indigenous women, the split is actually 60% incarcerated and 40% serving the remaining of their sentence in the community. The overrepresentation of indigenous women now reaches 38.7%.

The average cost of maintaining a woman incarcerated in Canada at the federal level is $220,000, according to the Correctional Service of Canada, and about $190,000 according to the Office of the Auditor General.

In terms of their profile, compared to men federally sentenced women are more likely to have a mental health diagnosis, to have drug-related offences, and to serve shorter sentences. They are also more likely to be supporting dependants on the outside. Actually, most women in federal custody are mothers of children under the age of 18.

In terms of their mental health profiles, 80% of incarcerated women meet the criteria for mental health disorders. These include the most prevalent ones: alcohol/substance abuse disorder, anxiety disorder, and anti-social personality disorder. A third have post-traumatic stress disorder, mood disorders, eating disorders, and psychotic disorders. I'll also mention that nearly half of them are on some sort of psychotropic medication. Finally, 18% have intellectual challenges.

With respect to reintegration challenges facing women, financial and housing challenges are the top two, followed by other issues such as having difficulty accessing a family physician, not having proper identification, or not having a history of employment.

I'll come back later to the financial and housing issue.

In terms of work, there are two types of work in Corrections. There is institutional work and prison industry work. In terms of institutional work, most of it is a menial type of job, the most common being cleaning. With respect to prison industry, most women who are engaged in prison industry are almost exclusively engaged in gender-stereotyped work such as textiles, laundry, and sewing.

We conducted a review of the secure units, the maximum security units for women. We interviewed two-thirds of those women, 41 out of 62 of them. Here are some of our findings.

The infrastructure is very stark, very restrictive, and inappropriate, in our view. The secure units are also used to manage a few women who have serious mental health issues, and that is quite disruptive for the other women. That breaks down in terms of there being many lockdowns and breaks in routines, and it's very difficult for those women to sometimes witness interventions with use of force. There is a lot of drama. These offenders are too often brought into segregation.

The impact of segregation is also something that we've identified. The great majority of the women incarcerated in secure units have experienced segregation. There's also a gender-based classification system, which requires that some inmates who are seen as higher risk are handcuffed and sometimes shackled to go off the unit, which creates all sorts of problems for those women.

Finally, there also is a lack of meaningful employment, which is more chronic and problematic in the secure unit as opposed to the rest of the institution.

We made many recommendations in our last annual report. One of them was to reduce the use of those secure units and to use them solely for women who would otherwise have been sent to administrative segregation. In that sense, we are looking at simply separating the women instead of isolating them. We think that those who are significantly mentally ill should be transferred to outside hospitals and that Correctional Service Canada should expand its MOUs with other outside resources. We identified that 12 beds would probably do it.

The service should also expand its structured living environments, which are more therapeutic environments, and cascade those women who are in secure units to those medium-security structured living environments. Also, things like trauma-informed approaches are lacking, and when you have at least a third of the women who have PTSD, I think it's pretty obvious.

Let me now talk to you specifically about indigenous women. Here's the breakdown across Canada. There are 265 women now representing 38.7%. I should also mention that among those 265 women, there are six Inuit women. That brings in some level of difficulty because there are small numbers in terms of providing them with programming and services that are tailored to their specific needs, which is legally required of the service.

In terms of the indigenous women in federal custody, I would say that every indicator is worse for them. Compared to non-indigenous women, they tend to be younger, more violent, and more gang affiliated. They also tend to have lower levels of education upon admission. In terms of their social history, half attended or had a family member attend a residential school. Nearly half were removed from their family home. Almost all indicated or reported past traumatic experiences and substance abuse. There were high rates of involvement in prostitution at an early age, and almost half indicated they had a history of injection drug use, compared to 24% for non-indigenous women.

In terms of correctional outcome, there is more self-injury, more segregation, more use of force, and more placement in maximum security for indigenous women. They are also typically assessed at a higher level of risk and are less frequently granted day parole or full parole. They are released later in their sentences, likely at statutory release, which is at two-thirds of their sentence.

Finally, in terms of the direction for reforms, we believe that Correctional Services Canada should rethink the way it does women corrections and go back to the blueprint that was developed when P4W, a prison for women in Kingston, was scheduled to be closed and when the five regional centres were opened. We have witnessed great erosion in that philosophy over the years.

We believe a deputy commissioner for indigenous people should be appointed. We have been advocating for this for a decade now. We believe there should be greater use of aboriginal-specific provisions in sections 81 and 84 of the act, which shift the accountability and responsibility to some aboriginal communities. I'm more than happy to talk to you about that.

There should be more culturally appropriate and trauma-informed models of care. We should also enhance the participation of elders in decision-making, review the classification scales—this has been validated by the Office of the Auditor General—and do more Gladue sentencing and vocational training.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

As you said, you have full and complete details, so thank you very much.

We will only have time for one round of questioning. We're going to start off with seven minutes to Marc Serré.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation.

You have echoed what many other witnesses have told us throughout the study.

Does your role in the correctional system apply only to prisons or does it also extend to the circumstances of indigenous women before they are incarcerated?

Do you have specific recommendations for this issue?

Finally, do you have specific recommendations for indigenous women once they have rejoined their communities?

3:55 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

My office's mandate is that of an ombudsman. It is purely related to correctional services. We investigate complaints lodged by federal inmates.

We handle complaints lodged by inmates during their incarceration, when they are released on parole, and up to the end of their sentences. Our mandate does not extend to issuing recommendations about what happened before their incarceration.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

Are the recommendations from your 2016-2017 annual report any different from those issued in the last 10 or 20 years? How have the recommendations of your office evolved?

3:55 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

It's very true that the recommendations we made many years ago haven't been taken up by the Correctional Service of Canada, the CSC, or by the government.

In the annual report I delivered in the fall of 2017, we talked about the situation of women, which is a serious problem in maximum security institutions. This is very new. All of the other problems have been identified for years now, and the government hasn't been able to fix them for one reason or another.

When there is an over-representation of almost 39%, we can't simply continue doing the exact same things and hope to achieve different results.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

Can you give us more details on the recommendations on pages 14 and 20 of this report? You talked about factors related to the Gladue decision. We heard about women in a maximum-security facility. We have heard a lot on these issues, but do you have recommendations that provide more details than those listed on pages 14 and 20?

3:55 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

We need more leadership on this subject within CSC. For example, the deputy commissioner for women should have the direct authority to establish and manage a correctional system for women that is autonomous and separate from the existing system. We also need a deputy commissioner responsible for indigenous inmates to provide accountability. At the moment, all kinds of people are responsible for this group, but they do not have to show accountability.

Concerning the maximum security facilities that are filled with indigenous women, we need a completely different approach. We shouldn't be merging the correctional aspect with the mental health one as it is done right now. The approach should be much more therapeutic for those who need it.

Finally, in my opinion, section 81 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act is the key to success on the correctional level, because it gives the minister the authority to sign agreements with aboriginal communities. The $220,000 spent annually could be given to indigenous communities so that they can establish and manage healing lodges. These communities could use this money to help their members.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you very much for your recommendations. Perhaps, we should have seen your presentation first. Many witnesses have enriched our reflection, or have told us that something needs to be done.

I don't want to be partisan, but I would like to know this. In the last two years, has the government considered any of the recommendations you've made here? What do you think of some of the steps taken in the last two years? Obviously, there's a lot more work to be done and we really need to do more, but do you have additional recommendations?

4 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

I think that there was a change of tone, and this alone improved certain aspects. Honestly, it was remarkable. I can send our data to the members of the Committee. During the entire time the previous government was in power, we noticed a rather considerable erosion of the 12 determinants of health in the correctional system. I'm referring to the number of grievances, cases of self-mutilation, use of force, assaults, and so on. All of this worsened over the decade when the previous government was in power.

But, in the last two years, we have seen improvements. It is stunning that there were no legislative changes or significant expenditures until now. We saw that the change of tone alone brought about a certain improvement. This gives me hope that, with legislative measures, resources and new leadership, the situation could get much better.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

We would indeed appreciate it if you were to send us your statistics. Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you very much.

We're going to now move to Stephanie Kusie, for seven minutes. I'm sticking right to the seven minutes, so I'm going to have to cut everybody off.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Zinger, for being with us today.

Are the complaints made by indigenous women in the correctional system different from the complaints by non-indigenous women? If so, how, and why?

4 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

Let me make just a general comment.

In general, we receive fewer complaints from indigenous offenders than from non-indigenous offenders. Part of the reason might be cultural, but it may also be that there may be different informal avenues to address concerns. Indigenous people may talk to elders. We also have native liaison officers in the correctional system. They they may try to reach out, and that may account for the lower rate of complaints. Of course, we have specific complaints that are related to indigenous people, for example, access to food that is more relevant to indigenous culture. We do have issues around and religious or spiritual matters, for example, medicine bundles, and things like that.

Let me ask Marie-France Kingsley—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Sure.

Would you like to add anything?

4 p.m.

Acting Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Marie-France Kingsley

I don't have much to add. There will be some differences, as Ivan mentioned, for indigenous women. For example, given that they're overrepresented in maximum security, you'll have more complaints related to conditions of confinement. Certainly, there's the issue of access to mental health services, because indigenous women are overrepresented in terms of the incidence of self-mutilation. Those are categories where we do see more.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

We have heard significant testimony against the unfortunate consequences of confinement. That was a major theme at our last meeting.

My second question is on how the complaints made by indigenous women are handled. Are they handled differently from complaints made by non-indigenous women? Is there a formal complaint process that is followed, or are there different processes for the complaints by indigenous women and those who are non-indigenous?

4:05 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

Are you talking about complaints to our office or the internal grievance system of the Correctional Service of Canada?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I would say both, perhaps, both operational and formal.

4:05 p.m.

Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Dr. Ivan Zinger

With respect to....

Yes, go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

Acting Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada

Marie-France Kingsley

I'm more at ease responding on how our office responds to individual complaints. There is no difference in the process. In other words, a federal offender can contact our office through a variety of means. Most often it's by phone, via our toll-free line.

One thing that does come up, though, is that in women's institutions we assign only women investigators. All of our investigators are fully trained in terms of cultural sensitivity and how to handle concerns that are much more prevalent in women's institutions. But the process is basically the same: it's about listening to the complaint and then doing the appropriate follow-ups.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Do the elders participate in the process

to sort of guide the process, or...?