Evidence of meeting #89 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Darlene Shackelly  Executive Director, Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of British Columbia
Audra Andrews  Union of Safety and Justice Employees
Lowell Carroll  Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual
Claudie Paul  Services Director, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.
Jacinthe Poulin  Health and Social Services Advisor, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.
Marie-Claude Landry  Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission
Teresa Edwards  Member of the Board of Directors, Indigenous Bar Association in Canada
Fiona Keith  Senior Legal Counsel, Human Rights Protection Branch, Canadian Human Rights Commission
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Kenza Gamassi

4:35 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

I can comment on the crown side of it. When we were doing this community court project, just getting a crown, for instance, to agree to work with us in this way was tremendously difficult, which speaks volumes to the crown's willingness to actually make a positive impact. We had evidence that shows it actually does deter crime and helps communities, and we couldn't find a crown who was willing to jump on board.

I think there's a strong disconnect between what's really happening, what needs to be done, and what the crowns feel is a proper administration of justice. Honestly, most of them had no interest in these community courts or even in looking at these issues.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Why the resistance? Did anyone ever articulate why on earth they wouldn't accept this opportunity?

4:40 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

This is why I mentioned the victims. Often the crown would take the position that they are advocates for the victims, not the accused. I think that in itself is a problematic outlook. This is why I was saying that it's really important to change the way we think about justice, because even the crowns themselves think about themselves as in opposition to the defence. That's not necessarily the best way to deal with things, especially when it's a perpetual problem that's caused by all these social and political issues. It seems like an “us versus them” thing: “I'm not here to help the accused; I'm here to put them in jail.”

I'm not speaking about all crowns, but we found some who were absolutely not interested in even talking about it.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Carroll, you referred very briefly to many of the women or of the individuals incarcerated suffering from FASD. What was the proportion or the percentage? That's my first question.

FASD is a brain trauma.

4:40 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

That's right.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

When you're sick, you don't belong in jail. You belong in a different facility.

What kind of response are you getting to this information?

4:40 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

There are two things. With FASD, the biggest challenge we had on the network was assessments. To diagnose FASD is not as simple as some people may think.

One of the other panel members mentioned that there are sometimes many complex issues. We found that it's very expensive to do these assessments. We have to hire doctors and things like that.

We got funding to do it, but it would take so long for us to be able to diagnose each person. Based on the interviews they did, they suspected the proportion was at least more than half.

To your point about its being a brain injury, another problem with these courts is that we have mental health courts, but they do not take FASD people, because basically that's a brain injury. They don't consider it a mental health issue. Perhaps it might be factored into sentencing, but otherwise these people are treated just like everyone else.

If we did a national inquiry on how many people who are in jail suffer from FASD, I assume the rate would be extremely high.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

It's interesting that you talk about the expense. I did some work in regard to FASD, and it is very difficult. The victims have profound inabilities to interact with people and even to focus.

In terms of the cost of incarceration—of repeatedly putting someone in this kind of situation, and the courts, and all of this—doesn't it make sense that one cost would balance off another?

Has anybody given that any thought?

4:40 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

Yes. That's the biggest problem, I think. Much of it involves playing for votes. I'm not taking a shot at any government in particular, but that's part of it.

The other part is that these community courts and such things are very costly on the front end. As you said, though, in the long term they save millions of dollars and people's lives are changed for the better, because you reduce the likelihood of people being victims in the future and of people being on income support and things like that.

Historically, this government, and the previous government especially, just looked at the short term: what is going to cost us the least amount of money? For them, it was easier to throw people in jail than to create innovative courts that deal with people properly.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

You kept coming back to prevention, and again, working with folks in terms of FASD, there's discussion about prevention. There's also the prevention you referred to in connection to proper housing, access to child care, employment, and educational opportunities.

How many of the women who are ending up in jails and prisons are women who have come from remote and rural communities where there was no housing, there was domestic violence, and there was no escape except to come into the urban setting? Has there been any follow-up in that regard?

4:45 p.m.

Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual

Lowell Carroll

Is that for me?

I don't have the statistics on that, but I've interviewed people myself—hundreds, probably thousands—and yes, a lot of times that is the case. They don't have a place to go to. They don't have an income. As I said, they're perpetual problems that are, you know....

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Bernadette Jordan for five minutes.

February 13th, 2018 / 4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I have so many questions.

I'm going to start with Ms. Shackelly. You talked a lot about how important women's access to their children is when they're incarcerated, and we heard a lot from other witnesses about that. It's not only positive for the woman who is incarcerated, but also for the other women within the facility.

When we're making recommendations, what can we do to make sure women and children stay together? What kind of programming needs to be offered? I'm just wondering if you can comment on that.

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of British Columbia

Darlene Shackelly

Just from my research, there are limitations in programs within the institution to help with support. I know when a child is first born, there is an access, a mother-child program. What I was speaking to was the connection of technology streams that would actually bring the family to the woman who is incarcerated.

It's one thing to come and visit in person, but it is an institutionalized environment, where children would no doubt be traumatized by what they're witnessing. I was speaking on the technology side, which is kind of what we're doing here. You can see that your parent is there. You can see your children.

We need the support, obviously, from the Ministry of Children and Family Development. If the child is in care, you need it from foster parents. You need it from grandparents, if they're raising their grandchildren. There's a whole extension of children involved here, but I believe that waiting until a woman is released from the institution is too short-sighted. It really needs to happen throughout the whole period of time that the woman is incarcerated.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Andrews, I'm going to go to you for a minute, because you talked about the intergenerational trauma and the struggle to reintegrate, heal, and connect using cultural practices. You said we needed to revisit the role of elders.

Can you expand on that a bit, and on what you see as the role of elders within the justice system, or are you talking more about once released into the community?

4:45 p.m.

Union of Safety and Justice Employees

Audra Andrews

Actually, it's everything you just said. It starts right during the court process, as they fall through the court process and into the institutions. I can speak only personally, but from my experience in working with elders in the institutions and in the communities, they are an absolutely integral part of it.

They right now are required to do a lot of paperwork, which they weren't originally intended to do. That's not their role. Their role is to work with the women, with the offenders in the institution and community. If you spoke personally to some of the elders working in the institutions, you would probably hear from them that they really are tied to a lot of paperwork, and it prevents them from doing as much work as they would like to do with the women.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you.

I'm going to go to Jacinthe and Claudie.

You talked about how there are no Buffalo Sage cultural centres specifically, but we've heard from Justice and from Corrections Canada that they have other programs available for people who don't have those centres. Have you recognized programs such as the Pathways program, and have you had success with that? Do you see it as an alternate model to something like an actual healing lodge?

4:45 p.m.

Health and Social Services Advisor, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.

Jacinthe Poulin

With the help of a researcher from Laval University, we have identified certain programs such as the Spirit of a Warrior, the “seven sisters”, the Pathways Unit at La Macaza Institution, and In Search of Your Warrior.

I cannot tell you about the success rate of those programs. In Quebec, the challenge is that there are not enough inmates in the only penitentiary for women in the province and those programs are not available there. That's the information I have. We are told that you have to spend, on average, 238 days in the penitentiary before getting access to those programs, when they are available. I therefore cannot give you information on how effective those programs are, because I don't have it with me. We would have needed more time to have more information. In Quebec, as I told you, few programs are offered to female inmates.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Is that information available? Could you submit it to the committee through the clerk?

4:50 p.m.

Health and Social Services Advisor, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.

Jacinthe Poulin

Yes, I can.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

Once again I would like to thank the witnesses for coming today. Once again, I'm going to do my best with your names: Darlene Shackelly, Audra Andrews, Lowell Carroll, Claudie Paul, and Jacinthe Poulin.

Thank you very much for coming.

We're going to suspend for two minutes to switch up the panels. I'm going to ask that we immediately resume with the new witnesses.

You have two minutes.

4:53 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We're going to reconvene. Could everybody could please take their conversations outside or come back to their chairs? We're going to start once again.

Thank you very much.

I would like to welcome Madame Marie-Claude Landry, the Chief Commissioner, and Ms. Fiona Keith, Senior Legal Counsel, from the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

We also have Ms. Teresa Edwards, Member of the Board of Directors, representing the Indigenous Bar Association in Canada.

We're going to begin with the Canadian Human Rights Commission for seven minutes.

4:53 p.m.

Marie-Claude Landry Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Good afternoon, everybody.

I will make my remarks in French and English—in both languages.

Thank you very much for inviting the Canadian Human Rights Commission to take part in your study on indigenous women in the federal justice and correctional systems.

Allow me to introduce my colleague Fiona Keith, Senior Counsel for the Commission. She is here to answer some of your questions, as I am.

From 2009 to 2015, I sat as the first independent chair of disciplinary hearings (independent person chair disciplinary hearings) at federal correctional facilities in Quebec. In that capacity, I had to rule on institutional charges against inmates. That experience, coupled with my current role as Chief Commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, is the basis of my testimony today.

My experiences on the ground confirm what the commission has long recognized, including through the complaints it receives, that vulnerable groups are disproportionately subject to unfair treatment while in a correctional facility.

Indigenous women in prison have often been victims of a toxic combination of racism, violence, sexual assault and other forms of abuse. In addition, their troubled past often causes them to suffer both physically and psychologically, and this suffering frequently contributes to the reasons for their incarceration. However, once incarcerated and without support, they experience difficulties related to their past that manifest in difficult behaviours.

In response to those behaviours, correctional services can use nothing but isolation, yet many studies have confirmed its devastating effects. As a result, those indigenous women, many of whom are victims of abuse and suffer from depression, post-traumatic shock, and so on, find themselves isolated and deprived of all human contact. This triggers a destructive cycle that the correctional service seems unable to stop for the moment. This cycle often ends tragically and sometimes even has fatal consequences.

In 2003 the commission issued a report entitled “Protecting Their Rights: a Systemic Review of Human Rights in Correctional Services for Federally Sentenced Women”. The report made 19 recommendations and continues to be cited in recent court decisions.

The first recommendation I would like to bring to your attention is that the Correctional Service of Canada act immediately to address the issues concerning the disproportionate number of federally sentenced indigenous women classified as maximum security by, first, immediately reassessing the classification of all indigenous women currently classified as maximum security, using a gender-responsive classification tool, and second, by changing the blanket policy of not allowing maximum security women at the healing lodge.

Fifteen years later, many of our 19 recommendations have not been implemented. The same can be said for recommendations in numerous other reports.

Three years ago, the commission held a series of round table discussions with indigenous women from across Canada. We have copies of this report; it's going to be available in both languages for all of you.

These round tables helped us learn about the difficulties that indigenous women face in the justice system. The participants identified 21 barriers to accessing justice, including the complexity of legal processes, language barriers, lack of awareness, lack of support, and lack of legal aid and other resources.

They also expressed a profound distrust of police and the judicial process. When they are the victims of crime, they don't feel safe going to the police for help. This could explain why only a small fraction of the commission's discrimination complaints come from female indigenous inmates in the federal corrections system.

Let's be honest: to be an indigenous woman in prison is to be invisible, to be ignored, to be denied their humanity, to be forgotten. We have forgotten them, because the findings from 10, 15, 20 years ago continue to hold true. Nothing has been done. These women continue to be ignored.

Indigenous women continue to be classified at higher security levels, based on classification tools and processes that do not reflect their unique characteristics. They continue to be placed in segregation and other forms of isolation at disproportionate rates, despite their histories of trauma and violence. They fail to have proper access to appropriate mental health services and cultural and spiritual supports. They continue to experience—even more, actually, within prison walls—the harassment, violence, misogyny, that marked their lives prior to their incarceration. Indigenous women have higher rates of recidivism because the corrections system fails to rehabilitate and reintegrate them, which is compounded by the lack of support they receive after release.

As very few recommendations have been implemented, litigation has proven to be the only way to make change—court-ordered change. In the case of indigenous women, this creates a double disadvantage. The court system is intimidating for most individuals, and even more so for indigenous women who have little to no support to navigate what can be a lengthy, costly, and very stressful process.

Despite all this, I remain optimistic that there is a genuine desire at the political level to make improvements, to do better. I hope that this government will start implementing the many recommendations that have been made over the years.

With that said, based on what indigenous women told us, here is what needs to happen to improve indigenous women's experience within the federal and correctional systems.

First, build trust. Indigenous women who have been victims of crime must feel that it's safe to come forward.

Second, provide support and assistance wherever indigenous women are. Services must find them: in their community or urban centre, at the police station, before a judge, in a remand centre, in a federal institution, and on release.