Status of Women Committee on Feb. 4th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Welcome to the 14th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021.

For members on Zoom, you'll be using the “raise hand” function and the order of speaking will be displayed on the screen in the participants list. Remember to mute your mike when you're not speaking.

Today, the committee—

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Madam Chair, I think the staff cannot hear. Can we check the sound, please?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Stephanie Bond]

I do see the staff in the list of attendees. It appears to be okay. Please let us know if they cannot hear. We are looking into it on our side.

Please proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Today we have our panel on pay equity. I'm very happy to have, from the Human Rights Commission, Karen Jensen and also Jeff Willbond, the director general of proactive compliance.

I don't know how long you have for opening remarks. I'm willing to give each of you five minutes, which is our standard, but if you want to speak together for five, that's fine as well.

We'll begin right away with you, Ms. Jensen. You have five minutes.

[Karen Jensen, Commissioner, Pay Equity, Canadian Human Rights Commission]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning to you, Madam Chair, the vice-chairs and the honourable committee members.

My name is, as you know, Karen Jensen, and I am Canada's first federal pay equity commissioner. With me today is Jeff Willbond, director general of the proactive compliance branch of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging, with gratitude, the Algonquin Anishinabe nation, from whose traditional and unceded territory I am speaking today.

I'm honoured to be asked to speak with you today about why now is the right time for pay equity in Canada and to fill you in on the work that the pay equity division of the Canadian Human Rights Commission is doing to prepare for the coming into force of the Pay Equity Act.

Since being called to the bar in 1994, I have been involved in representing employees, unions and employers in lengthy, contentious and extremely costly pay equity litigation. I saw personally the toll that pay equity litigation took on all of those involved, and I believe, therefore, very strongly in the benefits of Canada's move to a proactive pay equity system. That's why I was deeply honoured to be appointed federal pay equity commissioner in October 2019. I truly believe that pay equity is an important building block for Canada as it moves to build back better from the pandemic.

As we know, COVID-19 has exposed our vulnerabilities and our inequalities. Women have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic, especially racialized women, indigenous women, migrant women, women with low income, single mothers, LGBTQ+ women and women with disabilities or mental health issues.

Women workers in Canada were hit first by the pandemic and they've been feeling the impact the longest. In November of 2020 RBC Economics reported that the pandemic had rolled back the clock on about three decades' worth of women's progress in the labour market, setting Canada's economy up for a slower recovery than would otherwise be the case. Closing the gender pay gap is essential to our country's economic and social recovery, and it is essential for Canadian workers.

This is a painful time for our businesses. For those concerned about bringing in the Pay Equity Act at this time, it should be noted that there is a growing body of evidence that demonstrates how paying women equally for work of equal value to men’s work is good for business. For example, the Harvard Business Review recently highlighted research showing that, in regions like North America, the most—

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I have a point of order.

I'm hearing the interpretation at the same volume, so I can't really understand. I don't know if anyone else is having this problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Clerk, can you check on the translation?

Also, if the staff are still having difficulty.... Most of them are reporting that they can hear, but if they do have difficulty, they can call the phone lines and they'll address their issue.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Madam Chair, staff can hear now. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

[Karen Jensen]

According to a study that was recently published in the Harvard Business Review, in regions like North America, the most talented individuals prefer to work in companies that foster diversity.

Pay equity is a tool in promoting diversity in companies. It will assist companies to attract top talent, which will in turn assist them to outperform their peers.

In preparing for the new legislation coming into force, I have conducted extensive consultations with unions, employers, women's organizations and employer associations to identify any concerns they may have and to find out how we could best address them. In response to the needs identified by stakeholders, the pay equity team is developing educational materials, guidance documents and concrete tools that will assist the workplace parties to implement the act.

We are working closely with stakeholder groups to ensure that these tools work well for employers and employees.

Communication about the new legislation is key to our success. My goal as commissioner is to demystify pay equity and help employers to see that it is a golden opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to gender equality in the workplace.

The economic conditions for women are perilous right now and need to be addressed. Pay equity is one tool among many that will make a concrete difference in the economic reality of many women and help us as a nation to benefit from the full participation of women in the workplace.

I welcome your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Jeff, are you going to speak as well?

[Jeff Willbond, Director General, Proactive Compliance, Canadian Human Rights Commission]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I would simply say—because I respectfully wanted to give the floor and the time to Commissioner Jensen—that I, too, am in a brand new role for the Canadian Human Rights Commission. It's the first time we've had a director general responsible for proactive compliance, which brings under a single umbrella two program areas: pay equity and the Accessible Canada Act. I am responsible for those two pieces of legislation with respect to compliance and enforcement.

That's a new mandate for the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and we are very proud and pleased to deliver on the work that's important for Canadians moving forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

We'll begin our rounds of questioning, for six minutes each, with Ms. Wong.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for having the two witnesses with us. Either one of you can answer my questions.

You mentioned that Ms. Jensen's job started in October 2019, but the Pay Equity Act was actually much earlier. What percentage or portion of complaints were filed with your organization in regard to gender-based pay discrimination?

I also have a second question. As a member of Parliament for Richmond Centre, which is very diverse, I have a large population of ethnic constituents. Does the gap change at all when we look at ethnic women specifically?

[Karen Jensen]

Thank you very much for that question.

I will address the first question, which is whether or not there have been any complaints filed. As the member rightly pointed out, the legislation is.... I was appointed in October of 2019, which was approximately a year after the proactive pay equity legislation was passed in Parliament in December of 2018. The act is not yet in force, and we are anticipating that the act will come into force later on in 2021.

At this time, all complaints regarding pay equity are filed under the Canadian Human Rights Act—that's section 11 of the Canadian Human Rights Act—and we do know that from 2010 until the present time there have not been a great number of complaints filed. In fact, there are only about 19 complaints that were filed regarding pay equity during that time period. Of those—in fact, I think only 17 complaints have been filed—there are only nine that are proceeding, and those are largely dealing with public service institutions. Once the act comes into force, it will apply to all employers with 10 or more employees, which is about 4,500 employers across Canada, covering about 1.3 million employees.

The member has properly put forward an interesting question with respect to the levels of pay equity discrimination for ethnic women. Indeed, we know that the pay equity gap is different depending on the characteristics of the women and whether women are characterized by intersectional identities.

We know that in general the wage gap is 89¢; that is, women earn 89¢ on the dollar earned by men in Canada globally. However, racialized women working full time earn an average of only 67¢ on the dollar earned by non-racialized men. Indigenous women, on the other hand, earn approximately 65¢ on the dollar for every non-indigenous male dollar. For newcomer women, it's 71¢ on the male dollar. Disabled women—women living with physical or mental disabilities—are earning only approximately 54¢ on the dollar earned by every male who is non-disabled.

Yes, indeed, there is a differential impact of wage discrimination depending upon the identity of the women involved.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

For my next question, I'm applying my seniors lens.

All of us know that we live longer. Women live longer and are still very productive and very active even though they are considered to be seniors. Of course, the WHO has a totally different definition of seniors. You can only officially be called a “senior” when you reach the age of 80. I'm not extending it that far.

Does age factor into the pay gap at all?

[Karen Jensen]

Thank you for that question.

Indeed, the Pay Equity Act applies to all federally regulated workplaces. To the extent that older women find themselves in federally regulated workplaces and are continuing to work, yes, they most certainly will be eligible for pay equity adjustments, should that be found to be necessary within a given workplace.

We do know that mandatory retirement is no longer permissible, so in fact the average working age has increased. There now are more women working in the workforce later on into life, of course, me included, and who are proud to be doing so. Those women, if they are working within predominantly female job classes in a federally regulated workplace, will be part of the pay equity study. If the value of their work compared to the value of predominantly male work is comparable and they are being paid less than the men who are doing comparable work, yes, they will most certainly be eligible for a pay equity-related increase in their wages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we'll go to Ms. Sidhu for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Ms. Jensen. I was a member of the pay equity committee, so I'm really looking forward to the work you will be doing. I was proud to work for this alongside members of the Liberal caucus, despite the nay vote from the opposition for the budget implementation act.

When the Pay Equity Act is fully implemented, it will be the country's first proactive pay monitoring system. Under the old system, it was complaint-based. Women had to have proof that they were subject to discrimination. They had to bring forward that complaint, which risked retaliation from their employers. Soon federally regulated industries will need to self-report on their pay data, which hopefully will lead to a more transparent process.

Can you tell us what you see the effect being of the new system in the long and short term?

[Karen Jensen]

Yes, indeed, I'm happy to do that.

I would just like to clarify that in fact the federal legislation is really the third proactive piece of pay equity legislation in the country. Both Quebec and Ontario have had proactive pay equity legislation for some time. This is the first piece of proactive pay equity legislation in the federal jurisdiction.

As the member has rightly pointed out, it has been a long time coming. We are very happy to see that the complaint-based process has been replaced with a proactive process that puts the responsibility on the shoulders of the employers to undertake an analysis to determine whether or not there's a pay gap. It's not dependent any longer on women and unions to come forward and raise complaints and concerns about the pay equity system.

We anticipate that there will be significant benefits to this legislation. Aside from the obvious benefit of increasing the wages of women in federally regulated workplaces where there is found to be inequities, there are numerous other advantages in terms of the impact this can have on women and indeed on all of society. A study that was done in Ontario on their proactive pay equity legislation revealed that a number of psychosocial benefits resulted from proactive pay equity legislation—increased self-esteem among female workers, increased retirement savings available to women when they retired, increased financial security of single mothers and increased retention rates among female employees in workplaces.

I really want to underscore that last point. Pay equity has tremendous benefits for the business community. I'm pleased that in my outreach efforts, I'm seeing businesses recognize this. When an employer undertakes a pay equity analysis and communicates to its employees that it cares very much about gender equality in the workplace, that has enormous benefits for the business itself. There is quite a bit of research, which I alluded to in my opening remarks, that suggests that those businesses that promote gender equality are in fact more productive, more resilient and better at competing in the marketplace. Pay equity has been established to be good for business, good for workers and good for the economy. We know that paying women a fair wage for the work that is done will increase the household buying power. That will also fuel the economic recovery.

The more that women are able to participate equally in the workforce and increase their economic power and independence, the better off we all are. Of course, this will also have an impact on the children in Canada. That's important to note as well.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you for that explanation, Ms. Jensen.

We know that pay inequality is not just a matter of gender. The average working woman in Canada makes 87¢ for every dollar a man makes, but for visible minorities it's 67¢. Women who have children also make less than those who don't. Men with children actually make more than their peers without them.

Can you tell us how these intersectional inequalities, more than just comparing men and women, will be addressed?

[Karen Jensen]

Yes, indeed, and thank you for the question.

We believe that the proactive pay equity regime is particularly likely to benefit women with intersecting identities, such as newcomer women, racialized women, indigenous women and women with disabilities. Research indicates that women with intersecting identities face larger wage gaps, as the member has pointed out, due to, for example, part-time employment, precarious work, occupational segregation, social norms, stereotypes and unconscious bias.

As part of our engagement strategy, the commission is engaging with diverse women to better understand how intersectional factors affect their economic outcomes. However, we do know that when women with intersecting identities are part of predominantly female work categories, employers are now required to look at the value of that work and compare it to the value of work done predominantly by men.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time for that question.

Ms. Larouche, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Jensen, Pay Equity Commissioner, and Mr. Willbond, Director General of Proactive Compliance, thank you very much for taking the time to visit us this morning to talk about this legislation, which is crucial for advancing feminism in Canada.

The figures in your speaking notes reveal gaps that remain far too significant for women, whether they are racialized, Indigenous, with disabilities, or otherwise.

You mentioned proactivity for employers and the tools and guides that can help them. What could we find in these guides and tools that could truly help employers apply this important legislation?

[Karen Jensen]

I am delighted to talk about our tools.

We are actually developing very useful tools that will significantly help small and medium enterprises to develop their pay equity plans.

With one of these tools, which uses Excel, employers will be able to enter their data by job category and let the tool do the calculations needed to determine whether there is a pay gap. If so, it will indicate how much to invest in order to fill that gap. The tool will therefore be very effective and very important for employers who find it difficult to comply with the requirement to prepare a pay equity plan.

In addition, we are drafting guidelines for employers and unions to provide them with an explanation of the techniques and methods set out in the act, which are sometimes difficult to understand. We also have a legislative guide that clearly explains the requirements of the act and provides concrete examples of how to comply with it.

In addition, we are preparing training material for employers. We want all employers across Canada to have the equipment, the tools and the material they need to understand their obligations under the act.