Status of Women Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I want to welcome the minister and, as well, Anthony Housefather. It's lovely to have you on the committee today, Anthony.

Welcome to the 18th committee meeting of the Standing Committee on Status of Women.

The meeting today is taking place in our usual hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For members who are on Zoom, remember to mute your mike when you're not speaking.

Along with Minister Filomena Tassi, to talk to us we have, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Barbara Moran, the acting assistant deputy minister, and Lori Straznicky, the executive director.

To begin, we'll give the minister five minutes, and then we'll go into our rounds of questions.

Ms. Tassi, you may start.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Good morning. It's fantastic to see each and every one of you. I want to begin by thanking you for the work you are doing.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that I am participating from the traditional territory of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinabe people, within the territory covered by the Upper Canada treaties as well as the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear today to speak about the progress we are making with respect to the implementation of the Pay Equity Act.

As you know, we introduced the Pay Equity Act as part of Bill C-86 in 2018.

The act represents a big step forward in our efforts to address the portion of the gender wage gap that is due to the undervaluation of women's work. Since it received royal assent in December 2018, we have been working hard to implement it.

As part of this process, we are developing the supporting regulations required to bring the act into force.

The draft pay equity regulations were pre-published in part I of the Canada Gazette in November 2020 for a 60-day comment period. The typical comment period is 30 days. The government opted to extend the comment period so that stakeholders had ample time, given the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, to review the proposed regulations and to submit their feedback.

Pay equity is a legacy we will leave to future generations. We are being very careful to get it right.

Stakeholders were keen to provide comments on the proposed regulations. In fact, we received over 30 submissions from employers, unions, advocacy groups and individuals. At this time, we are carefully considering all the comments received in order to finalize the regulations. We should be seeing the new proactive pay equity regime come into force later this year.

Once it is in force, an employer will have three years to develop a pay equity plan and determine if employees are owed pay increases. This means that pay equity plans would be in place in 2024 in workplaces that become subject to the act the day it comes into force. Employees would immediately be owed any increases in compensation at that time as well.

I understand that at first glance three years may seem like a long time; however, I want to make a couple of points on this.

First and foremost, let us note that Canada is taking a leadership role in implementing this legislation. We firmly believe that this transformational legislation is the right thing to do as well as the smart thing to do.

Second, we must appreciate that this requires employers to understand assessments and compare the value of work, which includes factors such as skills, effort, responsibility and work conditions. This cannot be done overnight. This takes time if we want to get it right.

Third, given the current circumstances that we are in the midst of a pandemic, and businesses are shifting resources and priorities to address pressing needs, a little bit more time is required for them to adapt to the new requirements. This time will enable employers to establish their plans and put in the required time to get this right and to implement pay equity properly.

Moving forward with pay equity is a key priority for the Government of Canada. Pay equity is a significant change in how people are compensated for their work, and we all know that it's long overdue. The Pay Equity Act will help reduce the gender wage gap and bring our country a step closer to gender equality. However, achieving pay equity is a complex issue, and we must take the necessary steps to get it right.

I can assure you that while Canada continues to fight the COVID-19 pandemic, pay equity is a priority and a foundation stone for building back better. We are working together to create an economy where everyone can fulfill their full potential. Workers, employers and the Canadian economy will all benefit when women are paid for the full value of their work.

It would be my pleasure to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you, Minister.

Now we will go into our first round of questions of six minutes each, starting with Ms. Sahota.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister, I'd like to thank you for finally appearing before our committee today considering the length of time it took and numerous reschedules.

Nonetheless, we're glad you're here to answer our questions about the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report entitled “Fiscal Analysis of Federal Pay Equity” and the implementation of the Pay Equity Act.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Excuse me, Madam Chair.

The interpreter can't hear the English and interpret in French.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Is this better? Can you hear me?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Stephanie Bond]

Perhaps begin your question and we'll see.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I'll start over from the beginning.

This doesn't go toward my time, does it, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

No, we'll be generous.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you.

In budget 2018 and the 2018 fall economic statement, your government allotted money to pay for the new administrative framework for the act, yet no details were provided. According to the PBO, his office requested the documents that contained specific information on the number of employees by classification group and the composition, whether it's female dominated or male dominated. The government refused to turn that information over, citing cabinet confidence because that type of information would have been presented to cabinet and/or cabinet committee when discussing this legislation.

However, considering it was just a dataset, the PBO used a simple example as to why he didn't believe the government's response. He said:

If you attach a Globe and Mail article to a memorandum to cabinet, of course it's a confidence of the Queen's Privy Council, a cabinet confidence. It doesn't mean that you have to take back all of the issues within that Globe and Mail or newspaper because somebody discussed a Globe and Mail article at cabinet.

The PBO was of the opinion that the type of information that he requested fell under that type of classification and did not believe that the information would have been damaging to the secrecy of cabinet deliberations.

Given the PBO's opinion that the information should have been open and accessible, can you please explain why your government felt that it needed to hide the information the PBO requested? Were you aware that by refusing to turn these documents over, you were preventing the PBO from being able to fulfill his legislative mandate?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

In the fall economic statement, there was a commitment of $26.6 million over six years with $5.8 million thereafter with respect to oversight and administrative costs.

With respect to the question that you are raising, it's my understanding that the request was made to the President of the Treasury Board. The President of the Treasury Board had indicated that the information would not be shared because of cabinet confidence. I take cabinet confidence very seriously. I know that was the reason. The information was not shared for that reason.

I'm not sure the request was made to our office—the labour department. I could turn to my officials for that, but I know that the President of the Treasury Board had indicated cabinet confidence as the reason.

I don't know if my officials want to add anything to that.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Can you talk to your colleagues and maybe release that information, or commit to releasing it?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

What I would say is this: cabinet confidence is critical.

I have great respect for cabinet confidence, and if it is declared that cabinet confidence prevails, then we have to have that, and information cannot be shared.

It would really undermine the way that we proceed. If my colleague is indicating that it is cabinet confidence, it's the very reason that underlines the reason that information is not shared, then I absolutely support that because I am a strong believer in cabinet confidence.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister, I am going to read the quote from the Parliamentary Budget Officer again, as to why he didn't believe the government's response. He said, “If you attach a Globe and Mail article to a memorandum to cabinet, of course it's a confidence of the Queen's Privy Council, a cabinet confidence. It doesn't mean that you have to take back all of the issues within that Globe and Mail or newspaper because somebody discussed a Globe and Mail article at cabinet.”

That's what you seem to be saying, and the Parliamentary Budget Officer doesn't believe that.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I think that the issue here is what is cabinet confidence?

I know that my colleague has indicated that the information that was requested fell into cabinet confidence.

There may be dispute as to what cabinet confidence is, this is what you're talking about. But I support my colleague in his assertion that this is cabinet confidence, and I'm a strong believer in adhering to cabinet confidence. We cannot release information that is going to undermine—

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

It's just data that he is looking for. Anyway let's go to the next question, as it seems like you're not going to answer my first question.

Because of your deliberate withholding of these documents, the PBO had to use alternative sources to estimate the costs of implementing the act, and estimated that it would start at $477 million and with the additional employee benefit it would increase to $621 million. However, as the PBO said in committee, the cost could be higher because of the lack of information, and only the government would be in a position to best inform us.

Minister, can you please tell us how much this piece of legislation will cost?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Let me begin by saying this is historic legislation.

We know that women receiving pay for work of equal value is something that our government strongly believes in, and we have taken a strong stance on this, and have continued to move on this legislation because it is long overdue.

We are looking forward to full implementation. We believe that all partners are on board for this, everyone wants to see this because we know it's not only the right thing to do—

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister—

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

...it's the smart thing to do.

So we are going to continue to move forward with this legislation.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

That's not my question, Minister. If it is so historic, why are you hiding information from Canadians?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

There's no information that's being hidden.

As I said in the previous response, if cabinet confidence is what prevents the release of information, then we have to respect that.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I just asked you a simple question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We have to move on.

We're going to Ms. Sidhu.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Minister, and always being available, our third minister being available to us, showing that our committee is very important.

As someone who was a member of the pay equity committee that passed a recommendation in 2018, I'm proud of our committee's record on the transparency measures, and the pay equity legislation.

I think it is worth mentioning that our federal government has been the most proactive in history on the issue of pay equity after robust consultation with workers, stakeholders and employers.

Minister, you said the pay equity is our legacy, it's historic legislation.

My first question is about the legislation's impact on our economy.

Minister, how will the proactive pay equity regulations support the growth of the Canadian economy, and the economic recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

There's no question that women's participation in the workforce is a win on all counts. When women are a part of the workforce, the economy grows stronger and economic gains are made. It's not just morally the right thing to do; it's the economically prudent thing to do.

Canadian women are among the world's most educated. Over the last 40 years, greater participation of women in the workforce has accounted for about one-third of Canada's economic growth. Canada could add an estimated $150 billion to the economy in the next decade by taking steps for greater gender equality in the workforce, so economically there's no question that this is an advantage.

It's also an advantage to women, in terms of providing them with equal pay for work of equal value. Employers, at the end of the day, are going to benefit as well. There's going to be increased productivity, increased retention and, as I just mentioned, increased growth.

This legislation is a win-win. I'm very happy that it's our government that has moved forward with this legislation, and I look forward to its full implementation.