Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did you direct that an investigation be conducted?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, it's also extremely important to note that it was taken independently. More importantly, as the member is questioning a 2015 investigation, as the former chief of staff to Prime Minister Harper clearly stated—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but that's your time.

We're now moving along to Ms. Dhillon for six minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Good morning, Minister. Thank you for attending committee.

In 2019 our committee presented the following report to the House of Commons: “A Force for Change: Creating a Culture of Equality for Women in the Canadian Armed Forces”.

Within the report were a number of recommendations provided to the government on the path forward in addressing the sexual [Technical difficulty—Editor] culture, and measures that could be implemented to help eliminate discrimination, violence and harassment, including sexual harassment in the CAF.

Recommendations two and three were specifically about mandatory comprehensive sexual harassment and awareness training.

I have three questions, and I'll break them down.

What is the current training offered to members of the Canadian Armed Forces? Is it consistent across sectors and chains of command? Are you looking to review any current gaps or needed changes to make it more effective?

Thank you.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, Madam Chair, right off the bat, it is extremely important that we take the recommendations from the experts, so I appreciate the information that was provided.

Yes, training is currently provided, because ultimately we're trying to create a culture through which we can eliminate any type of misconduct that occurs. That's extremely important.

When it comes to the details of the training, I'd like to hand it over to either General Eyre or the deputy minister to answer more specifically regarding exactly what type of training is provided now.

[Lieutenant-General Wayne D. Eyre, Acting Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Minister.

Madam Chair, sexual misconduct training is conducted annually for all members of the Canadian Armed Forces, but in my view annually is not enough, and there has to be a constant drumbeat to remind our members of what right looks like.

In terms of gaps in that training, as I rapidly find my feet in this job, some of the gaps are becoming apparent, such as those to do with power dynamics and understanding the use and abuse of power in a hierarchy like our own.

On some of the other training that's out there, bystander training is part of it, as is training on respect in the CAF, but I can give you a much more detailed list if I take this question on notice.

Thank you.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

I would like to ask a follow-up question on the report. This report also emphasized how essential it is for members who experience sexual misconduct to have access to victim- and survivor-centred supports and services. We know that the sexual misconduct response centre offers members of the Canadian Armed Forces many crucial services.

Can you please discuss any expansion of services in the SMRC since 2019 and any future plans to further expand its role and mandate to help victims and survivors?

Thank you.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, before I hand the question off to Dr. Preston, who is the real expert when it comes to the work we do—in particular, she is the person who leads SMRC—I will say that it is very important that we provide the appropriate support. We can only imagine what somebody actually goes through when dealing with something so traumatic, so they need to be able to come forward and be guided toward the appropriate resources that exist. It is so important to make sure they get the appropriate resources. Not only have we supported the SMRC, but we are looking at future plans for expansion to make sure they get the appropriate support, reaching all parts of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Dr. Preston, can you take that question, please?

[Dr. Denise Preston, Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence]

Just to make sure, because I missed part of what you said, was the question about what services have been put in place since 2019 to better support members?

The first thing is that in August 2019, we added the response and support coordination program, which is the program the minister spoke about in his opening remarks. It is about providing a single point of contact for members and supporting members from the time of first disclosure until such time as they feel they no longer need that type of support.

We have quite a number of members involved in that program right now. At present, we are offering that from a centralized location, but we are currently looking at expanding it to have regional sites across the country. That would be much more responsive to members' needs.

Another service that we also got into place in 2019 was a contribution program whereby we are providing funds to nine different sexual assault centres across the country to support them and the services they provide to the broader CAF community. This is in recognition of the fact that while there are many members who would prefer to have services within the military and who are familiar with military contexts and issues, there are also members who would prefer to go completely outside [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good. I'm sorry, but that's your time.

We're now going to Madame Larouche.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We're all very concerned about the issue of sexual misconduct. It should be noted that sexual misconduct is unacceptable behaviour in the military and throughout society.

I want to go back a bit. A while ago, journalist Noémi Mercier wrote an article on the topic. An investigation revealed the following:

The culture is hostile to women and LGTBQ [members] and conducive to serious incidents of sexual harassment and assault. Cultural change is therefore key. It is not enough to simply revise policies or to repeat the mantra of “zero tolerance”. Leaders must acknowledge that sexual misconduct is a real and serious problem for the [Canadian Armed Forces] ...

This came out in former Justice Deschamps' report in 2015.

This prompted the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to address the issue in 2019.

Minister Sajjan, when you took office, weren't there any indications that you needed to pay attention to this toxic culture in the military?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, this was one of my top priorities as a minister when I took office in 2015. In fact, from the early reporting, Madame Deschamps' report that came out in 2015 was extremely important to us for the work that we started: the work that the SMRC does, the passing of Bill C-77, the declaration of victims rights, making policy—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Minister Sajjan—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Larouche, can you raise your microphone?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Are you speaking to me, Madam Chair?

The sound is cutting out a lot.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm sorry. Is my sound cutting out, Madam Chair, or...?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I have a point of order. The minister's sound is very bad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Can the clerk see if they can fix that in the room?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That would be good because I don't want to lose my speaking time, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I will stop the clock while we resolve.

Is it better? Yes?

All right. You can continue. I'll add your time.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You said that you read the 2015 Deschamps report and that you tabled Bill C-77 to address the issue.

Also, in your opening remarks, you said that sexual misconduct must never be ignored. So you have never ignored information about any allegations. Is that right?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

So you didn't ignore the information in the hands of the ombudsman, Gary Walbourne.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I've stated very clearly before—and I'll say it again unequivocally—I take any allegation, regardless of rank or position, very seriously.

Immediately after that meeting, I took it to the appropriate authorities. I think we can all agree that no politician should ever be part of an investigation. By taking it immediately to the appropriate authorities, the independent ombudsman was able to provide information to an independent agency in the Privy Council Office, which is responsible for Governor in Council appointments, so that it could be taken to exactly where it needed to go and so that action could be taken. That was done immediately.

I can assure you that it's something I take very seriously. As I told the ombudsman at the time, the rank or position of the person does not matter. It has to be independently investigated. Why the former ombudsman did not provide that [Technical difficulty—Editor] is for him to [Technical difficulty—Editor], but what we can do is make sure that the information is provided independently. It is extremely critical to say—and I state this unequivocally—that no politician should ever be involved in an investigation.