Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Minister Sajjan, you said that you sent the information to the Privy Council Office so that the investigation could be conducted independently. However, you know that the PCO didn't do anything. Does this mean that you were letting the matter drop? If so, why did you want to let it drop? Did you want to hide some information?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, that's absolutely not true at all. As an elected official, I have to provide it to the appropriate authorities to actually take action. I have to be able to trust in that process. We cannot allow politicians to get involved in any type of investigation. This is something I take very seriously. It has to go through a proper process because ultimately this is one of the fundamental things we need to—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, if we don't follow the appropriate process—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I gather from your comments—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

—to get just outcomes for a person who comes forward, we may not get the just outcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Minister, I think she has one more question.

Go ahead, Madame Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, I want to remind you that the sound cut out several times while the minister was responding. I don't know what happened, but I was cheated out of some of my time. That's very unfortunate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

You still have half a minute.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Perfect.

Minister Sajjan, you said that, if the Department of National Defence had gotten involved, it would have constituted interference. Are you telling me that the Privy Council Office is an independent and non-political investigative body?

I'm waiting for your response.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I stated, the Privy Council Office is responsible for Governor in Council appointments, and the chief of the defence staff is one of those. Having the former ombudsman go to the appropriate authorities so it could be determined where the information needed to go was extremely important. If we don't follow a proper process, one of the most important things is that we may not get a just outcome. The last thing we want to do—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm very sorry, but that's the end of your time.

We're now going to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the minister for appearing today.

Last week, Lieutenant-Colonel Eleanor Taylor, a highly respected officer, resigned from the forces. She pointed to a seething undercurrent of rage among the women serving. She's one example. This is happening to so many women.

Minister, as the defence minister do you feel any responsibility for the conditions that created this undercurrent, whereby women have no option but to give up their years of service and the commitment they've made to their country? They have no option but to give that all up, resign and go to the media to report these undercurrents.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, it is extremely disturbing to hear this. These members of the Canadian Armed Forces want to serve their country and have the flag on their left shoulder to represent their country, and for them to feel they have to leave is extremely disturbing.

I've made it a personal mission, from the time I was serving to now, to make sure that anybody who wants to join can reach their true potential. To know that people feel like this.... More importantly, there are women and other people who have left the Canadian Armed Forces even beforehand, and that's extremely disturbing. It's not—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You've made it your personal mission, Minister, yet when the ombudsperson came to you and tried to bring something forward, you refused to hear him. You've repeatedly stated that no political officer had a place in these investigations, so you refused to hear it. You say that you reported it to the appropriate authorities, but upon not receiving the information they demanded—which I would argue is inappropriate, because they could have done it without names and they could have continued to do an investigation—they also dropped it; they left out that responsibility. At whatever point, whose responsibility is it? I'm asking, after you had sent it to the PCO, did you follow up with them, this so-called appropriate authority?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when it comes to any type of allegation, it has to be handled appropriately. This is one of the reasons I took it extremely seriously and immediately said, sorry, there is no confidentiality when you're talking about a chief of the defence staff; it has to be reported to the appropriate authorities. In this case here, that's the agency that's responsible for Governor in Council appointments, and it was immediately followed up.

If we don't follow that process.... Just imagine this, for anyone who's done an investigation, if you end up interfering politically in an investigation when somebody has the confidence to come forward, you can undermine that entire investigation if there was any interference. I wanted to make sure that the information was dealt with properly, so that if it turned into a proper investigation and had to go to court, there would be no reason for somebody to say somebody interfered and the person couldn't get a just outcome. That's how seriously I take it.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Minister, you've consistently said—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I understand the point that somebody is trying to make here.

I want to make it very clear, Madam Chair, I can assure you, that any time somebody brings any type of information, it is always—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

But there's a difference between authority and responsibility.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You can paint this any way you want, but I can assure you that it's something I take extremely seriously. It was something I took seriously at that time, and I took it to the appropriate authorities immediately.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

There was no follow-up, Minister. Nothing happened. There was no follow-up.

Another thing is you sent this to the PCO. You actually just said in your five-minute statement that the SMRC is an independent body that reports to the deputy minister and has been in place since 2015. Why would it not have gone to the SMRC if it is truly independent from those political problems that you've mentioned? Wouldn't it have been the proper resource to go to as well? Couldn't you have followed up with the SMRC?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, when it came to sending it to the appropriate authorities, it was done. The ombudsman could have actually gone to the SMRC, and the ombudsman could have gone to the military police as well. Right now, we can continue to talk about this, and I can assure you that I followed all the appropriate processes. What I'm also going to stay focused on, and I look forward to hearing all your advice on, is how we make those appropriate changes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Minister, do you blame the ombudsman for not doing his job properly. Is that what you're saying?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, the question that you asked me was whether I followed the appropriate process. Absolutely, I did. It's not for me to speak for the ombudsman, you will have to ask your own questions regarding that. I have my own questions as well.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Did you advise the ombudsman to go to the SMRC?