Status of Women Committee on March 25th, 2021

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

I've been in this position since May 2020, so as far as I'm aware, I have no information.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So you don't know whether the minister's office or the minister himself contacted your service to ask it to learn more about the situation.

I understand that the ombudsman does not have the power to let you know there is a problem, as he is not part of the chain of command. Do you think that is a problem?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

From my time or my experience within the CFNIS—and I can't speak for the ombudsman—I can say that, in the past, investigators from their office have coordinated with our office when there was a desire for a criminal investigation.

That has happened in the past but only when there was a desire.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

To you, Mr. Lick, the ombudsman has no authority when it comes to criminal investigations. That's clear, and you said you would have done exactly the same thing your predecessor did.

Interestingly, when we had the minister before the committee two days ago, I asked him if he provided advice to your predecessor that he could have gone to the SMRC. He said that he did tell the ombudsperson to go to the SMRC.

As I understand it, though, the SMRC isn't the correct place for you to go. Because you did not have the authority to do so, that wouldn't have been the correct path for Mr. Walbourne to take, just to be clear.

[Gregory Lick]

Yes. Let me clarify things a bit in that regard.

The member who brought the complaint forward likely would have been provided with the information on what recourse mechanisms were available to them, including what support would be available to them through the SMRC. The SMRC is not an investigative body. It does not investigate complaints. It is primarily there, in this particular situation, to provide support and information to members who suffer sexual misconduct or sexual assault.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You mentioned in your opening statement that there is no political will to make a change in the reporting mechanism, so right now you can only report to the minister.

Would it be helpful to you, as a change, to report to Parliament as a whole, as many other ombudspersons and commissioners do? Is that what you're looking for? Could you explain exactly what may help in this situation?

[Gregory Lick]

The primary issue in this issue of the day around sexual misconduct in the military is what will provide victims, survivors and even witnesses with the confidence and comfort level to come forward with their allegations and have them addressed properly without any political or administrative vested interest interfering in that. That is the most important question that I think committees are dealing with today.

In my very strong opinion, the only way we can provide the level of confidence and comfort that allows victims, survivors and even witnesses to come forward is by having an external body that is completely independent. Normally in this case it would be reporting directly to Parliament. That is what we owe these victims and survivors.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

One of the problems, which came from testimony by Mr. Walbourne at the defence committee, is that after he brought the complaint forward and the minister refused to hear it and they had that exchange, there were fewer and fewer meetings. Many were cancelled.

When you took over the role, could you say, on average, that you had regular meetings with the minister? Have you had the same issues or has it been okay?

[Gregory Lick]

I have certainly not had the issues that my predecessor experienced. The minister and I, at this point, have a very respectful and professional relationship. We meet probably between quarterly and semi-annually for various issues, particularly the systemic investigations that we are carrying out.

If there was an issue of more urgency that required me to meet with the minister, I would ask for that meeting and address it with him at that time.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

If this were to change and it were to be reported to Parliament, how do you see that moving forward?

[Gregory Lick]

It would be very similar to the other commissioners and individuals who are reporting to Parliament or have an officer of Parliament arrangement. It is still in the manner of....

As an investigation or a review occurs, depending on the mandate an organization has, you would come forward with recommendations to the department, usually through the minister, on what should occur. I expect that would be very similar to what would happen if we created or developed an independent agency that would address complaints of sexual misconduct. It would not be one that has an order-making power. With respect to orders over the military, I think that would be inappropriate.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'll note one of the key issues here, and I don't know how to get beyond it. Maybe I can't do it in 30 seconds. There is such an entrenched “don't ask, don't tell” knowledge that if you say anything against a superior officer or anyone else, you will be blacklisted and thought of as a snitch.

Maybe you can address this in other questions or maybe we can get back to it when I have more time, but how do we start to really get at the trust level? Is it through education?

This is directed to both witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

You're out of time.

Now we're going into our second round of questions.

We'll go to Ms. Wong for five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to, first of all, thank all the witnesses who appear before us today for this very important study.

I'd like to continue asking the question that Ms. Alleslev started.

In 2015, when the previous government requested you—I'm addressing Lieutenant-Colonel Leblanc—to investigate allegations pertaining to General Vance and the relationship he had during his time in Naples, did the investigation interview all of the officers who were posted there at that time? I don't think you had time to reply last time.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

No, absolutely. I guess my response would be the same. To speak about the specifics of an investigation is not appropriate, and I wouldn't get into what we did or didn't do throughout the investigation.

I will tell you that a complaint was received, an investigative assessment was conducted and a report was distributed from it.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

That means that you will not be able to just give a nay or yea as to whether they were interviewed. We don't want names, just whether those who were posted there were interviewed. This is just a yes or no question.

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

I'm not authorized to release parts of an investigation or the steps that were or were not taken.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Okay.

I'll go on to my next question, which might be similar, but then it's a different case. Again, when in 2015 you were asked to look into a rumour pertaining to misconduct by General Vance during his time in Gagetown, were all the officers posted there interviewed?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

I don't believe we were.... I'm just looking at my notes here. The CFNIS, I don't believe, was asked to look at that specific allegation.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Okay, so you weren't even given the task to do so.

The media has reported that the minister had directed that the investigation into the navy “red room” incident be reopened. Is that correct, and how did you receive this direction?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

I'm aware of the “red room” and the unit disciplinary investigation. I think it's probably a good point to advise that the investigation was conducted by the navy. The stuff that I'm aware of is from the media, probably the same as you. Nothing has been referred to my unit for investigation at this time.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Again, about the relation between you and the ombudsman, can the ombudsman direct you to conduct an investigation?

[LCol Eric Leblanc]

To be clear, nobody outside of the provost marshal can direct me to conduct an investigation. Folks can report an allegation to us, and then we'll decide whether or not we proceed with an investigation.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

As the commander of the Canadian Forces national investigation service, you are a Lieutenant-Colonel. How does that affect your ability to investigate allegations against colonels, generals and admirals?