Status of Women Committee on March 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, you're out of time again. You have to make your questions more succinct.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'm out of time. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We will go to Ms. Shin for five minutes in the second round.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, Madam Deschamps, for appearing today and for your report. It's so refreshing. You speak my language.

As you know, Bill C-3 was passed in Parliament because we see a need to counter culture and systems that victimize women and promote toxic masculinity. Your report is important and our discussions today are important to help bring this cultural shift within the Canadian Armed Forces, but I believe it will also, as it gets resolved, bring change in other sectors of society.

The other day when I was questioning the minister, because I felt he wasn't getting the big picture, I pointed out that the purpose of processes and systems is not to exist for themselves but to help us bring justice and not hinder it. Processes and systems are there ideally to provide an environment that safeguards and maximizes the potential for accountability, integrity and safety to draw out truth and an outcome of justice.

However, if top authorities and leaders like the Minister of Defence are acting in a way or making decisions that are questionable, negligent or insensitive to reality—as the minister is, in my opinion—is there a process whereby those who are in more junior positions can file an appeal against those in higher authority about their decisions?

[Marie Deschamps]

I'm not sure what kind of process you're referring to. I can give you a very technical response, which is that, yes, there is an administrative process that goes up to the chief of the defence staff, if you go all the way to the top. There is also an arbitration mechanism, and I'm not sure I'm in the best position to describe what is currently the process and whether you're talking about sexual harassment or sexual assault.

If it's sexual assault, that's for the military justice system. If it's sexual harassment, that's for the administrative system that I described, which goes up to the top. The short answer is, yes, there are mechanisms.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, there are processes. Are they used? Is there push-back? What is the culture in the way these tools are used, whether for harassment or assault?

[Marie Deschamps]

For assault, it's the military justice system. For harassment, I've seen various approaches. I've seen in some environments.... I have an example in mind from the navy in which the very high-ranked officer was taking it very seriously, was receiving every day every report and wanted to make sure that the victims were looked after and that the perpetrators were not left alone. In other instances, I've seen pure denial.

It's a very large family. Consistency would be advisable.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

What would happen, then, if the defence minister is at the top and you want to appeal? The top voices are those of the chief of staff. Is there a process for this to happen as well?

[Marie Deschamps]

I'm not sure that the minister is part of the administrative process. I think it stops at the CDS.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

The problem I'm seeing here and the reason we're here is that systems are blind to the plight of people and the nuances that are human-sensitive, such as gut instincts and unofficial knowledge of background. When leaders or those in position to impact justice ignore, let's say, an elephant in the room, then a culture can't shift.

You mentioned a lot about strong leadership. Strong leaders shouldn't blame the system but should take action that transcends the system, because they put the dignity and well-being of people first. I, along with many who have observed abdication of responsibility with our current defence minister, wouldn't really be here having these long discussions if there were complete confidence.

Would Madam Deschamps be able to comment on whether the minister could demonstrate more convincing commitment to shift the culture of toxic masculinity in the way he is handling all of this so that he is providing leadership that transcends the system?

[Marie Deschamps]

I'm not sure whether you're asking me to give my opinion on the way the minister is currently acting, which I don't want to comment on. Certainly, however—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time anyway, so you're off the hook.

We go on to Ms. Hutchings for five minutes.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Madam Deschamps, I'm going to echo everything my colleagues have said. I hope you realize what a model you are for young women and girls. What you've done is truly remarkable. We appreciate so much your appearance here today, your expertise and your being able to emphasize the transformational recommendations to protect all women and everyone, all members of the CAF.

Also, your report is so interesting, Madam Deschamps. You talk in your 2015 report about the culture at the CAF and highlight that both men and women “appear to be generally desensitized to the sexualized culture. Officers tend to excuse incidents of inappropriate conduct on the basis that the CAF is [just] a reflection of civilian society.” God, isn't that sad?

Since 2015, our government has taken steps to improve the conditions of Canadians who serve, but it's so clear that more can be done. What will it take, madam, to create that multi-level cultural change?

[Marie Deschamps]

This is the answer that the global strategy was supposed to provide. When I drafted my report, I said that the Canadian Forces needed to come up with a global strategy. I was not in a position to draft such a strategy. I thought they would come up with it and come up with it early. This is not what I have seen. It's difficult for me today to give you tips, because this is not something that can be done overnight.

When I presented my report to the generals, I told them that it would take a generation to accomplish the change. However, we're six years past that presentation, the generation is growing up and it seems that we have accomplished very little.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam.

My colleagues and I have often highlighted the importance of having a survivor-centric lens on this committee study into sexual misconduct in the CAF. How can we ensure that the needs of the survivors are respected in every single step of the investigation process for sexual misconduct?

[Marie Deschamps]

The following is one of the ideas I came up with. It was not something that I just took out of my head. I had an example from one of the contributors who acted as an advocate.

One very concrete means I had to comfort the victim was that the centre—the independent centre that was supposed to be created—would have on its staff an advocate who could welcome, take care of and stay with survivors from the minute they put their foot in the centre until the very end. The advocate could accompany them to the hearings, contribute to the preparation of their testimony, and ask the police, Crown attorney or the military Crown attorney where the case was at. This would provide victims—survivors—with someone they can call at every minute to ensure that their case is proceeding and their issues are being taken care of.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam. That's wonderful advice.

Madam Deschamps, you said in your report that it was going to take a few generations of change. Going forward, what would your first steps be to get this process going? What would your advice be?

[Marie Deschamps]

Very concretely, we need to have better training, and we need to have men understand that they need to include the women.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

That was so well said, Madam. Thank you so much for your leadership and thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Marie Deschamps]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Larouche, we now go to you for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mrs. Deschamps, I would like to talk more about the process for handling complaints. The former ombudsman, Gary Walbourne, worries about the new body being a hybrid semi-independent organization, one that would look great on paper but lack the necessary independence.

Are you as pessimistic as Mr. Walbourne?

[Marie Deschamps]

I didn't hear what Mr. Walbourne said, but the organization has to be independent, in my view. At this stage, I don't think a hybrid body would give people much confidence.

Conversely, establishing an independent body comes with all sorts of challenges, since members of the military serve on bases and move from place to place.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Establishing an independent body does indeed have its challenges, but as you said, that independence matters.

Why do you think seven of your 10 recommendations have yet to be fully implemented by the Canadian Armed Forces? Your report came out years ago. Why is there still so much to do?

[Marie Deschamps]

I can't answer that.

Two years after my report came out, I criticized the Canadian Armed Forces for the same thing. Initially, I was told that all the recommendations had been implemented. After looking at the little table the Canadian Armed Forces had put together, I explained that the recommendations had not all been implemented. Regardless, I can't explain it.