Evidence of meeting #24 for Status of Women in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was assault.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie S. Lalonde  As an Individual
Christine Wood  Chief, Strategic Engagement, It's Just 700
Stéphanie Raymond  As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Stephanie Bond

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

No. You're doing very well.

I think we have enough time for one question each.

We'll go to Ms. Wong for one question and then to the Liberals.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond Centre, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Without spending too much time, I want to ask both witnesses to follow up on what my colleague Leona just said about the culture and the years. You mentioned about five generations. I just wanted both of you to comment. You have the last word.

11:55 a.m.

Chief, Strategic Engagement, It's Just 700

Christine Wood

If I were to speak about culture change, the number one thing is truly levelling the playing field at this point, so that women have the same ground to stand on as men. This means money for women's health care. This means money for MST research. It means providing education programs for healing, for mentoring and for leadership.

I think we need a national day of recognition for women in uniform. I think we need to celebrate and acknowledge the women who have made CAF more accessible for other women. I would like to see an emphasis on women being as good as they can be, not on women being as good as men. We are different, and we do bring different skills to the table.

A lot of women who are at the top, who have succeeded in this culture, have put their heads down and ignored what was happening in order to persevere. To be honest, while I admire them, they are part of the problem. The silence around this issue.... The majority of people are silent, and it takes the actions of a few and the silence of the majority to create this point where we're at right now.

There are a lot of things to do to change a culture. There's no easy answer here, but I believe the very first step is levelling the playing field for all members.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond Centre, BC

What about you, Julie? Are there any additions from you?

April 8th, 2021 / 11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Julie S. Lalonde

Yes. I would reiterate what Christine said in terms of collaboration between VAC and CAF. I would also say that WAGE needs to be leading a lot of these conversations. We need an important GBA+ analysis, and they are the folks who created that analysis. They need to be included in these conversations.

Lastly, this is truly an intersectional conversation. As Christine has said, for adult men in this country—not children, but adult men—the highest rates of sexual assault are if they are incarcerated or if they join the military. We need to look at this from an intersectional lens.

I would also say an intersectional lens includes the fact that there's a significant amount of racism in the military. The Proud Boys were recently designated a terrorist organization. There were proud members of those groups who were also proud CAF members.

You can't talk about power unless you talk about all the ways in which power manifests itself in the military, and that includes racism and homophobia. A huge reason men don't come forward, as Christine said, is shame: shame that's directly tied to the homophobia within the CAF.

You have to look at intersectionality, and that means having all the players at the table: VAC, CAF and WAGE.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

Now the last question is for the Liberals. Is it Ms. Vandenbeld?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Yes, thank you very much. I do want to say how much we appreciate our witnesses, Ms. Wood and Ms. Lalonde, for being very articulate today in expressing what needs to be done. That is incredibly valuable for the committee and for the government.

When we use the term “sexual misconduct”, it refers to everything from an off-colour joke to an inappropriate relationship to outright rape. All of those things create culture, whether it's at the level of a joke or remark, or things that are just sort of laughed off and overlooked. To what extent do we need to do to respond at every single level to creating that culture?

Perhaps I could have Ms. Lalonde, and then Ms. Wood, if she wants to respond to that for a moment.

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Julie S. Lalonde

I'm an expert on bystander intervention, and what I hear from bystanders all the time is, “I didn't say anything because it was just a comment. If he had touched her, I would have said something, but it was just a comment. It was just a joke. Oh, you know how he is. He's old school,” and so on.

I think it is vitally important that the very philosophy of the path, which is what we're currently calling this discussion, explain that sexual violence exists on a continuum and that comments are directly related to abuses of power and directly related to gang sexual violence, which is happening.

This idea that we have to focus on the serious forms of violence—you cannot just focus on those without pulling back and doing that macro piece. We need to equip bystanders and to say that maybe an intervention for a comment doesn't look the same as it would for someone being cornered, but it's still an intervention that's necessary.

Noon

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Ms. Wood.

Noon

Chief, Strategic Engagement, It's Just 700

Christine Wood

I would agree one hundred percent. I think it starts as very tiny microaggressions, and each little instance chips away at a person's self-confidence and their sense of belonging.

If I could take just one moment, I would like to address the issue of peer support because it's so fundamental to our asks. I would like to make sure it's on record.

We need this space, this online platform. It needs to be online because we are mostly women who are at home with different commitments within our families. We often are unable to drive. An online platform is the safest, easiest way for the government to provide a minimum standard of care and access to everyone. However, that space needs to be kept as safe as the person who was raped yesterday needs it to be today. It has to be moderated by professionals, not by people who have been trained in peer support and are volunteering. We are asking for actual funding to guarantee that the site is moderated by professionals and that the conversations are kept as safe as the newest person joining needs them to be.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Excellent.

Thank you so much to our witnesses for the amazing testimony today.

We're going to suspend now momentarily while we do the sound checks for our next panel.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

We'll begin.

We are very pleased today to have with us Stéphanie Raymond as our witness.

We look forward to your comments. You'll have five minutes for opening comments and then we'll go into our questions. You may begin.

12:05 p.m.

Stéphanie Raymond As an Individual

Good morning. My name is Stéphanie Raymond. I was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces from 2001 to 2013.

During my military career, I experienced more than one incident of sexual misconduct, including assaults. The last assault occurred in December 2011. I filed a complaint with the military police in January 2012. In the 10 years since then, there has been a back and forth between the appeal courts and the Supreme Court; investigations have been opened and then closed; I've filed complaints with the Canadian Forces provost marshal and with the military police; and the list goes on. As you know, in January 2020, I was finally able to have my case heard in criminal court. In March 2021, my attacker pleaded guilty. As you can see, these processing times aren't exactly normal.

That's it.

I'm sorry. I didn't use the full five minutes provided.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

That's no problem.

We will start with our first round of questions.

Ms. Sahota, you have six minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Raymond, for being here and sharing your experience.

Your courageous step led to the creation of Operation Honour, but now, after several more high-profile reports, the acting chief of the defence staff has reported that Operation Honour has been a failure and is shutting down and would take the good and build something new from it.

Do you believe anything was good about Operation Honour, and is there anything worth building on?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Stéphanie Raymond

I can't answer this question perfectly. I haven't been a member of the Canadian Armed Forces since 2013.

I believe that Operation Honour has had some positive effects. However, it isn't aimed at the right target. It addresses the symptoms rather than the source of the issue.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Under the previous Conservative government, we acknowledged that our Canadian Armed Forces had a cultural issue towards women in the military, and had former Supreme Court Justice Deschamps do an external review. Her report was released in 2015. It places a heavy emphasis on the need for an external, independent body to oversee and investigate allegations of sexual misconduct. Given the recent revelations that include the chief of the defence staff, his replacement and the head of HR being under investigation for sexual misconduct, what are your thoughts on the creation of this independent body?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Stéphanie Raymond

The establishment of an independent body is key.

Throughout the assault proceedings that I undertook while in the military, I noticed the level of influence of the chain of command and the significant lack of confidentiality. I also noticed that victims faced retaliation as soon as they reported a member who was even the slightest bit liked or higher up in the ranks. Senior officers are more protected than soldiers and new recruits. There's no comparison.

Organizational culture issues and criminal acts must be considered separately. Sexual assaults are criminal acts that must be treated differently than sexual misconduct, which includes a number of behaviours.

Even though sexual assault is a criminal act, it isn't treated as such. Military members who commit sexual assault aren't tried under the same laws as other Canadians who commit sexual assault. In the military justice system, the rights of both the victims and the accused are different from the rights in the criminal justice system.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Given the more recent information that has come to light, that the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defence and the former Clerk of the Privy Council were all aware of the allegations against former CDS Vance from 2018, should such an independent body be under a ministry in the Government of Canada, or should it be an office and answer to Parliament?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Stéphanie Raymond

Good question.

I can only tell you that the body that would intervene and monitor this type of misconduct or assault shouldn't be headed or funded by the military. The military shouldn't be able to influence the judgments of this entity or the course of events.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

We had the Minister of National Defence appear before this committee and my colleague, MP Shin, asked him for some clarity on who was ultimately responsible for the handling of the sexual misconduct investigation into CDS Vance.

The minister talked a lot about the process, to which my colleague, MP Shin, said:

My concern is that we're trying to bring about a cultural shift. You keep bringing that up. You also bring up a lot about process, how you depend on a process. You don't want to bring clarity to that responsibility. You're just talking about process.

A shift in culture comes when we can transcend the process, when we recognize a responsibility. It was three years before General Vance was suspended. To me, that speaks volumes about abdication of responsibility.

The former and current ombudsmen have also said that going to the minister with the information was the correct path, and it was Minister Sajjan's responsibility to look into the matter.

Do you believe that in order to start addressing the culture in the military, everyone has to take their responsibility seriously, including the minister?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm sorry, that's your time.

We're going to Mr. Serré for six minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Stéphanie, for your continuous courage in shining a light on the sexual misconduct of the Canadian Armed Forces. I hope you are aware that your story is creating a ripple effect throughout, for many other individuals who really feel heard since your story in 2011.

Unfortunately, a lot of the burden in advocating and making the systematic changes in the Canadian Armed Forces has fallen on women, marginalized people and survivors of sexual assault.

I want to get your opinion. How can allies within the Canadian Armed Forces and allies outside of the Canadian Armed Forces advocate for more of a multicultural change here?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Stéphanie Raymond

I think that everyone should feel affected. Yes, you're right, whenever we talk about sexual assault or sexual misconduct in the military, we think that women and victims are the only ones affected. Often, men don't feel affected by the issue. They think that it's a women's issue.

Unfortunately, the situation won't improve if the general public fails to get more involved in the issue. They see the military as a remote entity that doesn't concern them as much. We have a major issue because not many people want to get involved. People aren't taking responsibility.

It's difficult to eliminate offences and criminal acts when the people who commit them suffer no consequences, remain unpunished or receive protection. There's no deterrent effect if, at the end of the day, you don't suffer any consequences for your actions. I think that's where the issue really starts.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

We heard the ideas of Julie S. Lalonde and Christine Wood. You talked a bit about your ideas at the beginning. I'd like you to speak about the importance of having a group of independent counsellors, specialists, and therapists available to victims throughout the complaint process. I'd like you to elaborate on this.