Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank Major-General Whelan and Mr. Choi for being present today. I know that we're discussing a very complex issue that requires a certain level of risk and courage on your part to appear before a committee in full public exposure, but those of us who have been placed in appointments of authority are held to a higher account and more scrutiny than the average individual, so thank you for being here.

As I've been listening to the different witnesses speaking throughout these committee meetings, there have been a variety of filters around sexual misconduct in Canada's military. There have been some very poignant testimonies from victims, from women who have learned essentially to navigate the toxic culture to follow their aspirations, and the minister himself has continued to purport that there needs to be a cultural shift, yet cultural shift can't happen unless there's personal accountability, and that is what I'd like to ask you about today.

I know that especially in the military, loyalty is very important, but sometimes pressured loyalty causes people to act against their conscience or their better judgment. Before processes can be effective, we need to understand the human condition that triggers people to do what is right or wrong, so without disclosing specific details of incidents, could you, beginning with Mr. Choi, share if you were ever forced to act against your conscience?

[Kin Choi]

Thank you for that question.

It's a very complex environment, as has been stated. I believe that, as leaders, we have to go into the ambiguous zones and be willing to take things on.

I can share with you that throughout this ordeal I personally have stepped in and supported people to provide them with support to speak their minds and to offer their stories. I think leaders at all levels have to be prepared to do that. Regardless of the system and process, we have to be leaders by demonstrating and leading with our hearts as well.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Was there ever a time you had to go against what you thought was right?

[Kin Choi]

I think we have many discussions throughout our governance process. I have spoken my mind in areas where I felt we needed to make changes, and we've had good discussions so that we can make some changes.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Sorry; for time's sake, did you feel that they were effective or that there could be some mechanisms that could be more conducive to allowing, especially civil servants like you, empowerment to do what is right without fear of reprisal? Are there any processes that could be put in place to make it easier for you to do what is right?

[Kin Choi]

That's a very complicated and very good question.

I think there are a lot of mechanisms that are already in existence for public servants, be it the ombudsman, the public sector integrity commissioner through public service disclosures through ADM(RS) and a myriad through staffing and so on. I think in many ways it can be confusing and makes the choices very complicated. I think we need to actually streamline it and make it easier for complainants.

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Sorry; you kept saying “complicated”—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Sorry. You're at the end of your time.

Now we'll go to Ms. Vandenbeld for the last few minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll focus my questions on General Whelan.

Thank you very much for being here this evening.

A lot of what we have been talking about, and you mentioned it today as well, is making sure there are trauma-informed supports for those who've experienced sexual misconduct. Then the next step after that is to make sure we're preventing it. That's when we talk about the culture change and getting rid of the toxic masculinity, and the processes that are in place to try to prevent the negative experiences that men, women and non-binary and transgendered people may feel.

However, it's more than that. Your position is also to create a welcoming, inclusive and positive environment where every single person, including women joining the Canadian Armed Forces, can thrive.

I heard child care mentioned. I know that's very important, and support for families. I know there's a Seamless Canada initiative looking at health and well-being as a total well-being, including the kinds of training that people can have, the mentorship of women at every step of the way throughout their career to make sure they have that kind of mentorship, and what we do in terms of recruitment and retention. I know that's a big question.

It's not enough to stop the problems; we also have to make sure we build a better environment and create a positive solution.

Perhaps you could talk a little bit about the work that's ongoing, and has been ongoing for some time, in those areas.

[MGen Steven Whelan]

I will try to round up a few of those. I'll start with Seamless Canada.

Seamless Canada is a wonderful Canadian Armed Forces organization or body that is working with provinces and territories to help families who are mobile across this country to remove the barriers that come with asking Canadian Forces members to uproot every few years. We have a wonderful relationship with the provinces, and they are working very hard to help families navigate provincial and territorial support agencies as the Canadian Forces moves them. I think that is very positive.

In terms of strategies, you will see in the fall of 2021 the creation of a Canadian Armed Forces retention strategy. We haven't had a retention strategy in a number of years. I think it's important to understand that this strategy is actually going to work very hard to ensure that those people who don't feel well represented see themselves in all of those support mechanisms the Canadian Forces has available to them.

We're talking about women's health. That's where you're going to see discussions about child care. That's where you're going to see providing uniforms and clothing that are appropriate to women. It's where we're going to collect data to understand how we can support women more. It even includes the dress committee. While it might seem trite as we discuss hair and makeup, it's not just for women, but for members of the Canadian Armed Forces who feel that this is important to their identity.

There's a tremendous amount of.... I'm only touching the top of the iceberg here.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We're pretty much at the end of our time. Let's leave it there.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Madam Chair, on a point of order, I want to confirm that Mr. Choi will table that document that grants him the authority to review, investigate or dismiss a complaint against the deputy minister or a peer in the same chain of command.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Mr. Choi, if you can direct that document to the clerk, that would be great.

I want to thank our witnesses, because your testimony was excellent and very helpful to us.

We'll suspend briefly while we do the sound checks for the next panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I want to welcome our witnesses for the second panel. We have retired Lieutenant-General Christine Whitecross and Major Kellie Brennan. Each of you will have five minutes to greet the committee and make your opening remarks.

We will begin with you, Lieutenant-General Whitecross.

[Lieutenant-General, Retired) Christine Whitecross (As an Individual]

Thanks very much, and good evening.

My name is Chris Whitecross, and I recently retired from the Canadian Armed Forces in December 2020 at the rank of lieutenant-general.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak today on what I consider to be an important issue facing the Canadian Armed Forces today and into the future. It's important, I believe, because how we treat people is not just a measure of our values but of our operational effectiveness as a military force.

As someone who grew up in uniform, having spent over 38 years in the Canadian Armed Forces, I am disheartened and angry on hearing some of the witness statements that have come out even as late as this week.

I look forward to responding to your questions with the hope that we can collectively come up with some concrete steps forward.

Thanks very much. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Now we'll go to Major Brennan for five minutes.

[Major Kellie Brennan, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity, and thank you to all the members of the committee.

I would like to introduce myself. I'm just one woman who has served in the infantry for the last 30 years, since 1991, but I give voice to all the women who need to speak up. I'm a soldier who served, and that service, for me, has left what I call battle scars. I was the subject of many intense and unfair power dynamics throughout my career.

I'd like to outline four truths.

The first truth is that human rights violations are still ongoing in the military. After 30 years, it's not an omission; I think that it's human rights violations to women. Women want to serve their country with pride, and they want to hold their heads high and contribute. Women want to be free of an environment where they are questioned or catcalled or mistreated, or looked down upon and seen as prizes and trophies and assaulted.

I think I need to explain how it feels to go to work every day with a knot in your stomach, how it shapes the way you walk down a hallway, the way that you then perceive men.

The second truth is that women are often penalized when they come forward. They're in fear of what will happen, how it will happen, who will do what. Women are often looked down on or shuffled out of positions quickly if they speak the truth. The guilt that women feel also puts them in a prison where they are made to feel shame, and that's by the very institution they are committed to serve and still want to serve.

The third truth is that the military justice system needs reform. It needs reform in how we conduct military investigations and how we often revictimize the women who have the courage to come forward. My focus would be on education, and making sure that the person who investigates can lay the charge, can bring that evidence to court and not just refer the charge, meaning that the people who are entrusted with an investigation are the people who can effect the change. We also have to know what that looks like for women: What is justice for women?

The fourth truth is that leadership needs to be a part of the solution, at all levels. The days of leaders using this as leverage, when somebody has done something incorrect and they use that against that person to then gain leverage, need to end. The chain of command needs to accept that there has been failure. For 30 years I've served its failure, and that failure is a very hard admission to make.

In closing, I'd like to reaffirm the most important point to this committee: that women are not statistics, but humans who have been violated by the very service that they believe in. I encourage you all, as parliamentarians, to give us a voice, as you have, and enable this change.

I truly thank each one of you. I have never been among a group of women such as I have today. In infantry, I'm always one of one, so today is a very special day for me, and I thank you all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much. Thank you both for being here.

We're going to start our first round of questions with Ms. Alleslev. You have six minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank the witnesses, and in particular Major Brennan, for the courage she has shown by becoming public and by being here today.

We can't fix what we don't know, and without the information we have no ability to move forward. I want to also remind her that she has parliamentary privilege. There should not be reprisals for being here today, because we called her.

Have you been contacted by the Canadian Forces national investigation service as part of the investigation into the allegations against General Vance?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

My chain of command reported to the military police and started an investigation. It wasn't the other way around.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Have they contacted you for your statement as part of the investigation?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I was interviewed for two entire days, six hours on each, and deposed information with the CFNIS as evidence and testimony.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did General Vance ever instruct you to lie about your relationship?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Madam Chair, yes. It's recorded, and the CFNIS has all of the recordings of him directing me in what to say, what not to say, how to say it, what to exclude, to perjure myself and to lie because—