Evidence of meeting #32 for Status of Women in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was midwives.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lisa Morgan  Registered Midwife, As an Individual
Tom Fenske  President, Laurentian University Staff Union
Angela Recollet  Chief Executive Officer, Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre
Buffy Fulton-Breathat  Registered Midwife, Sudbury Community Midwives, As an Individual
Naomi Wolfe  Registered Aboriginal Midwife, Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

I'm happy, Ms. Morgan, you submitted that to the tri-council for additional dollars, but are you aware if the province has acknowledged this? Has the province even approached the federal government? I see you're nodding no, so there hasn't been any request from the province to the federal government.

I wanted to ask also about out of province. You said earlier that you, Laurentian, take on students from outside Ontario at about 10%, like New Brunswick. My understanding is that every midwife in New Brunswick has been trained by Laurentian. You also have it in Nunavut, and they go back to their communities.

You mentioned earlier that Quebec has a midwifery program, but they don't accept any students outside of Quebec. No francophones are allowed to go to Quebec. I just wanted to confirm that. Hopefully, our Bloc Québécois member could support this, seeing the role that Laurentian is playing in accepting francophones from all across Canada, but Quebec doesn't play a role there. I just wanted to clarify that, please.

11:45 a.m.

Registered Midwife, As an Individual

Lisa Morgan

The university in Trois-Rivières, Quebec, yes, they graduate about 20 midwives a year. Quebec needs those 20 midwives. In their application process, you must be a resident of Quebec to apply to the midwifery program in Quebec, so what you're saying is true. When there are francophone midwives wanted in other parts of Canada, they have historically made arrangements with Laurentian to purchase seats in the Laurentian program. As you mentioned, the three New Brunswick midwives staffing the clinic there were all trained at Laurentian through that provincial government arranging for seats in our program in Ontario.

I was in discussions—

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

That's your time.

Madam Larouche, you have two and a half minutes.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Once again, I'd like to thank our two witnesses, Mr. Fenske and Ms. Morgan, for their testimony this morning.

As I said earlier, I'd like to begin, as a member of the Bloc Québécois, by expressing my support for and total solidarity with francophones everywhere outside Quebec. We support those affected by what happened at Laurentian University, and in particular the midwives.

We know that there are more than 250 midwives in Quebec and that there were approximately 43 [Inaudible—Editor]. The case has certainly drawn a lot of attention.

I'd also like to have your comments about some of the things that were said in an article published in Le Devoir. For example, it said that the cutting of the program looked like retaliation against a female profession, and that it had been condemned by observers of the midwifery community.

In the same article, Marie-Pierre Chazel, a Montreal woman who received pre- and post-pregnancy monitoring care from midwives, said that it was really an attack on women.

What do you think? Is this retaliation? Does the work of midwives get enough recognition?

11:45 a.m.

Registered Midwife, As an Individual

Lisa Morgan

It feels like both. I think you've said that it's a female profession that's under crisis, females serving females. We're talking about women's health care here, which is chronically underfunded, recovering often from previous cuts.

Like I said, we were recently engaged, or I should say still engaged, with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario about pay discrimination based on gender. It's been going on for many years and has cost us a great deal of money out of pocket. Each of us midwives has to contribute to those legal bills. It's very political. It feels very difficult. It's historically feeling unsupported. The profession can feel quite unsupported, and that certainly translates into the midwifery program as well.

When a cut happens like this, that none of us can understand or justify, “misogyny” is a word that's been used.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Thank you so much.

We talked a little bit about—or Tom, I think you mentioned—the CCAA. It's never been used against a public institution, and the New Democrats were very concerned that it would be used not only, as a start, against a public institution such as a university but could expand further.

Can you talk about your experience and the experience of your members once Laurentian was granted CCAA protection?

11:50 a.m.

President, Laurentian University Staff Union

Tom Fenske

Sure. It was two months of hell. I don't know whether I'm allowed to say that word, but I did. It was dollars and cents. I wasn't Tom Fenske; I was just an FTE, a full-time employee, a number.

It was just a head count procedure to try to get as many people out the door as possible, and midwifery offers the perfect example of why you can't use it in the public sector. It's not a private industry. It's a public sector institution that serves the public. If this were something that could be used in the public sector, there would have been carve-outs and a conversation around “No, wait, this is a program that services the north, that services indigenous and francophone women”, but it didn't and it doesn't care.

This process doesn't care. It's cold, run by lawyers from Toronto, and it was.... In any argument that you can make that was sound, it was as though you were talking to a wall. It was “Get people out the door. Salary, benefits...we need to reduce those, so get as many people out the door....”

Right now the university is scrambling, because they have cut too deep, too far, and people are.... I've received two emails today about people who had to go on sick leave. You're walking through a war zone where there are things all over the place and you don't know what's what. I couldn't even tell you what my department's name is right now, because that's being figured out.

That's part of the problem. If this were something that could be used in the public sector, then midwifery would still exist, because everybody recognizes why it needs to stay at Laurentian and why it needs to stay in the north.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

I think we have time for one more question for the Conservatives and one more for the Liberals, so we'll go to Ms. Sahota.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'm going to echo what my colleague Ms. Nelly Shin said about our finding out a lot of information about this program, right here today, and from learning quite a bit. I've heard some background from my grandmother, who grew up in India, where this was the main method, if that's the right word, used by people in small villages, for example, or even the bigger cities back when she was younger. All of her kids were born with the help of a midwife.

Lisa, you spoke about ethnic communities and focusing on bringing in people from different cultures. I'm wondering: Is there a difference in the students who apply for this program and taking the services of midwives into ethnic communities?

11:50 a.m.

Registered Midwife, As an Individual

Lisa Morgan

This is exactly what we're seeing. We're seeing many people dream about being a midwife who may not have dreamt of it before. We had a real intention in having these mandated populations and creating midwives for these communities.

Many of the news stories over the last couple of weeks since the school was closed have featured some of our Black midwifery students working in Ottawa, francophone students and indigenous students who are coming forward and fighting hard for this program. This was a dream that they dreamt and are realizing, and they see the need to serve their own communities. It is a beautiful, growing thing that was taking shape here, and it feels really that it has been cut off at the knees.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Now we'll have a final question from the Liberals. I'm not sure which of my Liberal friends will ask it.

Monsieur Serré.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Morgan, you mentioned that you have always, for 30 years, been dealing with the provincial government on this. It's clearly a provincial jurisdiction, but I want to ask you what you feel the federal government could do, what its role is when we talk about inclusiveness, when we talk about francophone and indigenous populations.

Right now, we haven't received anything from the province over the last 30 years or even recently. If we don't receive anything from the province, what recommendations do you have for this federal committee for the role of the federal government to support you and the program?

11:55 a.m.

Registered Midwife, As an Individual

Lisa Morgan

I do understand that the federal government has been hesitant to speak because universities are a provincial matter, but when we talk northern, francophone and indigenous, I do not see that as a provincial matter, particularly when we talk about indigenous nations that [Technical difficulty—Editor] provincial boundaries. When we talk about training midwives for the north, we're not talking about just Timmins. We mean Nunavut and northern Quebec. The same skills you need to provide health care in a low-resource setting apply to all of those settings. Francophone is national...one of the two official languages.

Particularly for the northern, indigenous and francophone, I think it's imperative that the federal government step in, as these are groups that are disenfranchised. They need that additional support and advocacy. That is needed for midwifery right now. I don't think it's confined to a provincial matter when we really think specifically about what the mandate of our school was.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I think that's an excellent place to leave it for this panel.

I want to thank our witnesses for doing an excellent job today.

We're going to suspend momentarily while we do the sound checks for the second panel.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I want to welcome our witnesses for the second panel.

We have Angela Recollet from the Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre. We also have with us Buffy Fulton-Breathat, who is a registered midwife with the Sudbury Community Midwives.

I'll introduce Naomi when she comes along.

Each of you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

We'll start with Angela. You have five minutes.

Noon

Angela Recollet Chief Executive Officer, Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre

I won't go into my introductions. I have to say that everybody here in the north is completely disheartened with the state of our community university. I held my post at Laurentian from 1994 to 2010, so I've been witness to several successes of our community-led and community-driven institution.

As a status Indian, if you will, we've had.... I heard our previous witnesses speak about the mandate of Laurentian University having indigenous, francophone and anglophone affairs, but in fact that tri-cultural mandate began with us as indigenous people. Just so you're aware, I do not like the term “indigenous”. I am Anishinabe, and this is Anishinabe territory.

We were very adamant about making Laurentian University a tri-cultural university and honouring the original people of this territory. We had to fight extremely hard to make that a reality.

As you can see, I am uncertain as to why the state of affairs at Laurentian has gotten to where it has. As an indigenous woman, as an anishinaabekwe, we are consistently under a microscope of accountability. We have to identify to the cent every penny that we spend, with full detail. To allow the university, an institution that is run systemically, to have such disgraceful unaccountability is just beyond somebody of my stature when it comes to leading Anishinabe affairs in this community. We have to continuously write 60-plus pages of proposals, whether it's the provincial government or the federal government, to identify simple access to services for indigenous people in this country that you now call Canada. For simple $60,000 requests, it's 60 pages to identify and prove why we require these services.

I'm going to stop about the disgrace of the university and the fact that both provincial and federal governments allowed this to happen the way it did. I think everybody has accountability.

I want to talk about the inequities of the north and the south that continue to happen to this day. I'll speak from many different lenses, first, obviously, as an Anishinabe woman, and second as a citizen in these territories. I will not get into a disagreement with the northeast and the northwest. That happened many moons ago, when we established the Northern Ontario School of Medicine. I'll speak directly to midwifery in just a moment, because I have several recommendations.

I'm a grandmother of five. We have always accessed midwifery. Prior to colonial practice and colonization and Canadian and Crown policy, we depended solely on our midwives. Our indigenous midwifery is a time immemorial practice and has been honoured and respected to this day. Obviously, with Crown policy and practices like the Indian residential schools...and even today that hasn't disappeared. It has just evolved into child welfare systems. Everybody needs to take a hard look at that, because they're still taking our children.

Prior to any of that contact, our midwifery was absolutely honoured. This was the fact of our life. This was our cycle of life. Without our midwives, we wouldn't exist in the harsh terrains that we once resided in. I'm a huge supporter of midwifery. In fact, with the Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre, we are one of 10 aboriginal health access centres in the province of Ontario and the only one of their kind in what you now call Canada.

In the last decade, we strived to negotiate with the province and established a very reciprocal, respectful relationship to ensure that it's a partnership and we don't have the province dictating to us on what has to be and what can't be. We work together to find resolve. We have now expanded our sector to approximately 28. That includes the aboriginal health access centres, aboriginal community health centres and now the indigenous interprofessional primary health care teams, along with indigenous family health teams and aboriginal midwifery.

The 10 AHACs were a pilot—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm sorry. That's the end of your five minutes. We'll have to get your recommendations when we come to the rounds of questions.

We'll go to Buffy for five minutes.

May 6th, 2021 / 12:05 p.m.

Buffy Fulton-Breathat Registered Midwife, Sudbury Community Midwives, As an Individual

Hi there.

I'm a practising midwife. I'll be working full time again this summer delivering babies in the Sudbury area. I'm a former faculty member and a graduate. I'd like to speak on the impact this has had both on the women and the students who benefit from midwifery education and midwifery services in the north.

In 1993, when the decision to have a site in the north for midwifery education was made, it had a huge impact not only on the availability to the learners who wished to become midwives but also on the women of the north. The location of the program in Sudbury meant that a midwifery practice started in Sudbury. We've now delivered over 7,000 babies through our midwifery practice. That practice was founded by the midwifery faculty at the university. It also provided a firm foundation for midwifery to spread across the north.

I know this has already been addressed with your previous speaker, so I don't want to go over it or belabour it too much. I've provided Monsieur Serré with a graphic. The practices in Attawapiskat, Kenora, Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, New Liskeard, Temiskaming and Hearst are populated by northern graduates. Having a site in the north is tremendously important for the retention of these graduates.

I can speak to that personally. My mother left the north for education. She stayed in southern Ontario. I returned to the north. I've worked in Attawapiskat; I've worked in Sudbury. I've committed my professional practice to the north, which is a consistent theme among students who are educated in the north.

The year 2020 was the international year of the midwife. Perhaps it was foreshadowing that Laurentian University did nothing to celebrate the international year of the midwife and our program. That's my personal bias.

My point is that midwives matter. Midwives matter in women's health care. We're recognized for our ability to work well in low-resource settings. As was said by one of your previous witnesses, we have no hesitancy in attending people in their homes. I can speak to my own midwifery practice. During COVID, our out-of-hospital birth rate has been 50%. People have been afraid to enter hospitals. Midwives service that portion of the pregnant population. Nobody else does. Nobody else will attend people in their homes. The impact of having a known care provider provide you with 24-hour care and to have access to them by phone or pager is immeasurable.

In addition, I just wanted to speak to the fact that several of my former clients are now midwives. They became my students, which was amazing. They were empowered by their birth experience to elevate their education, to realize their potential and to contribute to the well-being of the people in their communities.

I think it's a particular strength of midwifery and of our northern program that we have a specific mandate to incorporate francophone, indigenous and northern students into our learning population, because these are the people who are experts in their own communities and they return to their own communities to provide those services.

That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

That's very good.

I see that Naomi Wolfe is here. Welcome to our committee. Let's do a sound check and then we'll give you five minutes for your opening remarks.

If you want to start your remarks.... It sounds like there's a little feedback or something.

12:10 p.m.

Naomi Wolfe Registered Aboriginal Midwife, Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre

Angela and I are in the same room and I was on the line trying to connect to get logged on with one of your IT support people.

My name is Naomi Wolfe, and I am a registered midwife at Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre. I have been practising midwifery for over [Technical difficulty—Editor] years and—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

We're having a little technical difficulty with the Internet connection. I think the IT technician will reach out in a minute. We'll suspend until we can get it fixed.

12:10 p.m.

Registered Aboriginal Midwife, Shkagamik-Kwe Health Centre

Naomi Wolfe

I am Anishinabe. I come from Brunswick House First Nation, which is in northern Ontario. I have lived in the north my whole life.

I actually trained as a midwife in southern Ontario, which is the opposite of what we were saying. The reason is that I wanted a foundation of midwifery from our perspective as first peoples of this land, so I trained as a traditional midwife at Six Nations of the Grand River Territory [Technical difficulty—Editor].

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Yes, we'll have to suspend. We're losing you again.

Let's have the technician take a look at it. I do apologize. This is the challenge of Zoom in this current time.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

We will hear from you, Naomi. Thank you for your perseverance. We want to hear your testimony.