Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, your time did run out, so we won't get the response.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Of course, I thank Mr. Simon Trudeau for being here today. This is the second time he has testified before the committee.

My first questions are for Mr. Guy Chapdelaine.

Mr. Chapdelaine, I would like you to speak more about your role as chaplain general of the Canadian Armed Forces. If I understand correctly, the chaplain is the first person to whom the military member who is experiencing a distressing situation will turn. Do I have this right?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

Yes. My responsibility is more to provide leadership to chaplaincy services, but every chaplain, male or female, is invited to receive the person who calls on him or her with great compassion and humanity and to support them without judgment. Whether the person is a believer or not is not important. The chaplain welcomes a human being in crisis or simply affected by a situation. We must first welcome them, then direct them and help them while respecting confidentiality, because confidentiality is important in order to build a bond of trust with the person seeking help; it is needed to direct them to the right resources, or simply to help them denounce what they are experiencing.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Today we are at the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to specifically look at cases of sexual misconduct and assault. Given your position and experience and that of the chaplaincy team you lead, I imagine some of you have listened to people who lived through such situations.

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

Yes, you are quite correct, Madam.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I'm going to let you speak some more, but what do you think is the level of distress for these people? There has been a lot of talk about an increase in sexual assault reporting. Are these cases increasing or decreasing? Do the victims who come to you feel heard by the Canadian Armed Forces?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

It is very important for people to feel that they are not only listened to, but heard. I have been in uniform for 42 years. So in my long career, I've seen a lot of changes in the Canadian Armed Forces. However, I see that people need to speak up right now, and I hope that they feel more confident to speak up and express what they are experiencing. Things need to change.

Currently, the circumstances are right for there to be a profound change, one that ensures the dignity of all men and women, especially those who are vulnerable. It is important for us to be there to welcome them. The first thing we need to do is really put them at ease to help them report what they've experienced and go further in the process.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You've talked a lot about the importance of maintaining anonymity in your role. For that matter, it must be a challenge. How do you transfer sexual misconduct cases to other resources while preserving anonymity, which is essential in such cases? How do you manage to do that?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

We get there by walking with the person, creating that bond of trust with them and respecting their pace. We must not impose our pace, but follow the person's pace if we want to help them. You have to trust them and tell them that things can change. In my opinion, our role is very important. We have a frontline role, because we are everywhere. We have 261 chaplains in the Canadian Forces Regular Force. That allows us to have chaplains in every unit.

Because chaplains are not in the chain of command and, therefore, have no command authority, people sometimes have more confidence to come to us.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Because of the confidentiality that you can provide to people who come to you, how can you accompany them? You say that you accompany them in their process. What advice do you give them? What resources do you refer them to? You provide links, but how far do you go in accompanying victims to continue their process?

[MGen Guy Chapdelaine]

We do refer victims to resources, whether it's SMRC, the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, or the police. We can even accompany them and offer the presence of a support person if they so desire. We also guide them to all the other resources that are available through the Canadian Forces. We make sure they are never alone.

In addition, we ensure that chaplains are available at all times and we work in collaboration with the SMRC. When centre staff receive calls, they can provide the phone numbers for chaplaincy services, which are available 24 hours a day. So we can be reached at any time. So we ourselves can provide support to people who come to us and want to report misconduct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Lindsay Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to address my questions to the provost marshal.

Under the questioning with Ms. Sahota, we went over again the last time you were here, and you stuck pretty firmly to that idea that your office is entirely independent from the chain of command. You talked about being functionally independent. Could you expand on that, please?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, what I mean by “functionally” is that my authorities, accountabilities and responsibilities in my terms of reference clearly state that as the head of the military police, I'm independent from the chain of command, and I have full command of all MPs performing policing duties and functions. Those were the terms of reference given to me in 2011 when the chief of the defence staff put all MPs under the command of the provost marshal.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

There could be a difference between functional independence and the perception of independence. Certainly we heard witnesses—you heard them as well—bring testimony to this committee that they were still impacted by the chain of command, that there were influences on your officers. Is that more accurate? Is that what we could take from that?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Could you please repeat the question? I couldn't understand the last part.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, the difference, as you describe it, of being functionally independent and having what's written down versus what's thought of, the experiences that a lot of victims have seen, there's a difference there.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

In fact,

as we say in French, when I say “functionally”, I act as an independent actor from the chain of command. I make decisions independently from the chain of command. I recognize and acknowledge that there is a perception out there of the independence, and that can be problematic as a barrier to reporting to the military police. If it's a barrier, that, for me, is a problem.

I've had the opportunity to give my thoughts on the matter of enhancing independence to Justice Fish, who has done his review of the National Defence Act, and one portion of it is on military police. I'll be looking forward to his recommendations and deliberations on avenues to enhance military police independence.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Right, because of course, and this plays into perceptions too, I'd like you to go back to when Ms. Sahota brought up the idea of this, or the fact that the Facebook group exists. There's certainly potentially the actions that will occur because of their actions within that Facebook group and your actions in response to it. Could you outline specifically how you will ensure that the members of this group receive different sorts of education to help them learn why what they did was wrong and how you can alter the perception when people are coming to them for help?

We heard from Dr. West that the armed forces can be a gossipy place, so a lot of people know what's going on. Even if it is a private group, people know. How will you ensure that those people in positions of power under your command will provide supports and help to people looking for supports and help?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, it is certainly a challenge in spades for me. Part of that group are retired military police personnel and those comments are certainly not helpful for the military police at large. However, from a perspective of oversight or responsibility, I have that on the serving members, and I take the conduct of serving members very, very seriously.

I have multiple tools under the military police code of conduct to take steps to address conduct issues, such as inappropriate comments or disparaging comments that would have been made on that Facebook page.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Could you be specific?

What kind of follow-up will occur to ensure that these active officers are provided with the ability to learn and actively correct their behaviour, but also to ensure that with people going to them for assistance or help, they can be seen as people within that command, within that support structure, who can be trusted?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, from a perspective of investigating, the results of investigations are sent through the chain of command with some recommended avenues to address any misconduct, depending on what it is, but there is due process, as with any administrative process, to investigate and then inform the chain of command of what transpired. Then the chain of command has a number of tools to address the situation, but—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's the end of your time.

We are going now to Ms. Alleslev for five minutes.