Evidence of meeting #36 for Status of Women in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was midwives.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Haché  President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University
Ellen Blais  Director, Indigenous Midwifery, Association of Ontario Midwives
Marie Josée Berger  Provost and Vice-President, Academic, Laurentian University
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Stephanie Bond
Louise Aerts  Chair, Canadian Midwifery Regulators Council
Claire Dion Fletcher  Indigenous Registered Midwife, Co-Chair, National Aboriginal Council of Midwives
Josyane Giroux  President, Midwife, Regroupement Les Sages-femmes du Québec

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Our committee is studying midwifery services across Canada.

Witnesses, I will recognize you by name. All your comments should be addressed through the chair. If you need interpretation, there is a button at the bottom of your screen where you can choose either your favourite language or the audio from the floor. When you're speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for the interpreters. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Now I'd like to welcome our witnesses, who will each have five minutes for their opening remarks.

We have, from Laurentian University, Robert Haché, president and vice-chancellor, and Marie-Josée Berger, provost and vice-president, academic. From the Association of Ontario Midwives, we have Ellen Blais, director, indigenous midwifery.

We'll begin with Robert for five minutes.

11 a.m.

Robert Haché President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Aaniin.

Good morning, I'd like to thank the committee for inviting me to participate today. The committee's work in examining critical issues such as women's health, support and care for certain groups of women, women's labour issues and challenges faced by women living in rural communities, for example, is essential.

I am pleased to speak to you today from Laurentian University in Sudbury, in Northeastern Ontario, located on the 1850 Robinson-Huron Treaty territory and on the traditional lands of the Atikameksheng Anishnawbek and Wahnapitae First Nations.

Earlier this year, Laurentian University faced a devastating choice: close the university's doors or declare insolvency and set down the path of the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act to ensure the university's survival. It was an extremely difficult choice and the consequences were significant. We were at an impasse where decisions had to be made to ensure our long-term future, and one of those decisions was the termination of our midwifery program.

Although midwifery and sage-femme programs have been a point of pride for Laurentian University and indeed an area of need for the province, it has been a very expensive program to deliver relative to other programs. Indeed, it has actually been two programs, one in French and one in English, with a total of 30 students across both programs, and with faculty and support duplicated for each program.

With revenues capped well below the cost of the delivery of the programs, in a situation in which decisions needed to be made to restore the financial viability of the university, it was no longer possible for Laurentian to continue to offer these programs. To accommodate midwifery students, Laurentian has been working with the other programs in the province and is communicating options to help students make informed decisions about their academic future to ensure that they complete their degree. Further, the total number of midwifery training positions in the province will not change, as the Laurentian slots are being redistributed across the other programs in the province.

Laurentian's efforts are firmly trained on the future: on what comes next, on rebuilding and on excelling in our mandate of educating the future leaders of our global communities. We remain deeply committed to our bilingual and tricultural mandate, offering strong programs in French and English and with indigenous content and program options across faculties.

Laurentian University will continue to provide post-secondary pathways for our North's first-generation learners, for francophone and Indigenous students, for those located in remote areas or impacted by societal challenges, to the children and grandchildren of our nearly 70,000 alumni and to all those discerning individuals who choose to pursue higher education.

I would like to thank the committee again for the invitation to appear before you this morning and applaud the important work that you are doing for the people of Canada.

Thank you. Merci. Meegwetch.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Thank you very much.

Ms. Blais, you have the floor for five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Ellen Blais Director, Indigenous Midwifery, Association of Ontario Midwives

Thank you. Shekoli. Good morning.

I'm speaking to you today from Wasauksing First Nation near Parry Sound.

Thank you, committee members, and thank you, Madam Chair. I am honoured to have the opportunity to have a few minutes to share with you some words about the value of indigenous midwifery to the health and wellness of indigenous communities.

My name is Ellen Blais, and I hold the position of director of indigenous midwifery at the Association of Ontario Midwives. I am a graduate of the midwifery education program at Ryerson University, and I am from the Oneida Nation of the Thames.

I would like to share the name I was given that connects me to my spirit. In the Oneida language my name is Kanika Tsi Tsa, which means Little Flower. I was born through the waters of Many Flowers, who was born through the waters of She Who Carries Flowers, my maternal grandmother. My identity comes from a place of dislocation from the moment I was born, being taken away at birth by child welfare from my culture and my roots. The story of indigenous midwives is inherently related to dislocation as well, up to and including the closure of the Laurentian University midwifery education program.

Sadly, my story is shared by many. Although indigenous people make up about 4%-5% of the population of Canada, in many jurisdictions well above 60% of our population are in the care of the state. Since indigenous midwives are often present at the birth of indigenous babies, they work hard every day to intervene in these destructive practices and are providing excellent clinical care to every indigenous family they are working with. However, there are far too few of us to sustain this kind of work into the future.

I have three recommendations that I will now share, and then provide you with real-life contexts of why these recommendations are relevant.

First, we need a commitment from the federal government to build capacity for indigenous midwifery programs and services by developing a funding strategy to ensure indigenous midwifery is core funded.

Second, we need a commitment from the federal government to provide a mechanism to hire midwives and to provide housing and infrastructure for midwives in first nation and indigenous communities.

Third, we need a commitment from the federal government to provide funding for indigenous midwifery education, so that individual communities can support broader initiatives or create their own midwifery education programs that are relevant to the community, self-governed and community-responsive.

To connect the theme of dislocation, the history speaks for itself. The colonization of indigenous lands and resources also involved the forced removal of our children by the state to be placed in residential schools, now replaced by the current child welfare system. The medicalization of childbirth, along with policies embedded in the Indian Act, pushed indigenous midwives to the side and extinguished their work.

Without these overwhelming forces, midwives would have stood strong to keep birth in our communities. Midwives would have held our babies close and would never have allowed infants and children to be taken out of their mothers' arms. The anti-indigenous racism that is so prevalent in our health systems would not have been allowed to develop exponentially, to the point where indigenous people die from lack of culturally safe care.

In addition, the closure of Laurentian University has left a huge gap in providing midwifery education in the north, and with that, access for midwifery education for indigenous students and the growth of indigenous midwifery in northern communities.

Allow me one moment to ask you a few questions to illustrate my story.

If you have had children, imagine yourself when you were preparing for childbirth, or maybe even preparing for the birth of your grandchild. What were your hopes and dreams for your birth? Where were you going to have your baby? Most likely, you were thinking about your home, your family and your community.

Now replace your thoughts with these. Imagine yourself getting on a plane alone about four weeks before your baby is due. You wave goodbye to your family and hope that they will be okay. You arrive in a small rural or remote community thousands of kilometres away, where you know no one. You live in an unfamiliar place and you wait four lonely weeks until your baby is born. At birth, there is no family, no home and no community. You get back on a plane and you go home all alone with your baby in your arms, with no support.

This is what indigenous people have had to do for generations. It is a harmful and hurtful practice. Where is the sound of the newborn baby's cry? We have only silence. What does that mean for the health and wellness of your community? What has been lost?

In conclusion, access to indigenous midwives is imperative for the health outcomes of indigenous communities. Please consider these recommendations. We are tired of holding this up on our own. We know that to bring back birth is to bring back life. We know how to do this. We are strong, we know what we need, and we are brilliant.

I will conclude with a final ask by sharing a quote from the Women Deliver Indigenous Women's Pre-Conference.

We ask the government of Canada to measure the health and wellness of Indigenous women, girls and gender diverse people as an indicator of the health and wellness of the entire nation.

Thank you. Yaw?’kó

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Meegwetch, Kanika Tsi Tsa.

Now we'll go to our first round of questioning. We're going to begin with Ms. Sahota for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and for your testimony.

Ms. Blais, you touched on diversity a bit. I'm wondering if either you or the other witnesses can speak to the reception. How is midwifery received by other groups of different ethnicities? How about LGBTQ communities? What's the reception in terms of the program? How many different ethnic groups or LGBTQ individuals sign up for this program? Do these ethnically diverse groups or LGBTQ communities use midwifery services for the births of their children?

11:10 a.m.

Director, Indigenous Midwifery, Association of Ontario Midwives

Ellen Blais

I'm most expert in the indigenous communities, of course, but based on my experience of living down in Toronto, there are many practices that serve specifically and very specially LGBTQ2QS communities. We have a very diverse population of clients who have midwifery care. It's diverse, as you can imagine. Also, the indigenous communities themselves are very diverse. There's no such thing as a pan-indigenous approach to indigenous midwifery.

To answer your question, yes, it's a very diverse client population.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Mr. Haché, do you have anything to add to that?

11:10 a.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University

Robert Haché

Not really. I can't comment on the services that are used. I don't have the figures before me in terms of the distribution of visible minorities and so forth within the midwifery program.

11:10 a.m.

Marie Josée Berger Provost and Vice-President, Academic, Laurentian University

Maybe I can add a few words, Madam Chair.

What is very important is that at the midwife program, we ask students to identify themselves. If I look at some of the numbers I have—I don't have all the numbers—I see that in the program right now, there are five students who identify themselves in terms of their diversity. When we address some of the specific assumptions about the program as it is, we have students identify themselves as indigenous, as francophone, but also as gendered. They are identified as she or he; it depends.

During the course of the program, most of the professors take into account inclusion and diversity in delivering the different aspects of the program.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you.

This is to any or all the witnesses who can maybe shed some light on what role midwives play in Canada's health care system, and more specifically in the indigenous communities.

11:15 a.m.

Director, Indigenous Midwifery, Association of Ontario Midwives

Ellen Blais

I can speak for the indigenous communities.

We have about 130 indigenous midwives across Canada right now. This is why we are hoping that the federal government will consider additional funding for education and for programs and services in our communities. We are part of the health care system of Canada. We fully integrate within the health care system, providing services with birth at home, in the community, in birth centres and in the hospital. We work on all those levels of the health care system.

In terms of indigenous people, as I said before, we have about 130 indigenous midwives working across Canada, and about 30 specifically in Ontario. They work fully integrated with the health care system as well.

I hope that's helpful.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you. My time is up.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

You have one more minute.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

I have one more minute? Okay.

Maybe I can pose the same question to you, Ms. Berger.

11:15 a.m.

Provost and Vice-President, Academic, Laurentian University

Marie Josée Berger

I think it's very important to note that this program at Laurentian is part of a consortium. There are three universities—Ryerson, McMaster and Laurentian—and they work together to prepare the programs. For most of the courses, the reflection and the critical thinking and everything are delivered are as part of the consortium. We prepare the students by having them look at different aspects. One of them is geography and the special population groups, including aboriginal and francophone.

As well, because of the trends in the program, some of the programs are offered part time and some full time in order to give the opportunity to students to complete them, depending on where they are, such as in the north or in remote areas. We accommodate them. It's part of the consortium work.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Thank you.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses very much for coming here today to discuss a very important topic for our community. I am a graduate of Laurentian University, as are my father and daughter, and the news on April 12 when the court proceedings ended shook the community to its core. I myself was extremely disappointed and frustrated at programs being terminated at Laurentian University, which also saw its image become tarnished. I am still very proud of the university, but I'm having trouble accepting the process.

I know I don't have a lot of time, Mr. Haché, but we need to regain the community's trust. Today in committee we are specifically looking at the midwifery program.

Mr. Haché, we've heard repeatedly that there's an urgency to keep the midwifery program in northern Ontario. It's been our pride for the last 28 to 30 years because it's rural focused and it's in northern Ontario, with strong partnerships with Laurentian and Lakehead and a focus on indigenous studies, and it's the only bilingual program in Canada. Can you confirm today what efforts are being made to support this program to stay in northern Ontario?

11:15 a.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University

Robert Haché

This was an extremely difficult decision for Laurentian. Entering the process, and everything that has happened since we entered the process, was extremely difficult. We do absolutely recognize the impacts on communities and on individuals. None of this was done lightly.

Very simply, as I referenced in my opening remarks, Laurentian did not have a choice. It was either follow this process or close the doors three months ago on January 1. We chose the path that provided the university with a chance, but we had to do some very difficult things to try to bring the university financially in order. It had gotten to a point where we were insolvent and would otherwise have had to close our doors. We went through an exercise that looked at all of our programs on the English side and on the French side to identify those areas and those programs that would help support a financially viable university going forward and those programs that were just unaffordable and could not be maintained going forward. It's truly unfortunate, but the midwifery programs were clearly programs that cost us more to deliver than we received in revenue.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Monsieur Haché, we heard clearly from witnesses that the midwifery program with the tri-council will now be McMaster and Ryerson, which are an hour apart, with very little rural experience, very little indigenous experience and very little French experience.

I don't know if there have been conversations, but there's a natural fit here to have NOSM deliver the program. There's Collège Boréal here in northern Ontario. Have you considered these options? Are there conversations with Laurentian and the Minister of Colleges and Universities to have the midwifery program remain in northern Ontario in partnership with NOSM and/or possibly Collège Boréal?

11:20 a.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University

Robert Haché

We've had many conversations with the Ministry of Colleges and Universities and with the Ministry of Health, which provides support for the program as well.

The program, as you heard, is part of a consortium, and the steps that have been taken have been to close the programs at Laurentian and to transfer the students and the student positions—the slots that were previously held at Laurentian—to Ryerson and McMaster. The total number of training positions will continue in the province, but they will be redistributed to the existing consortium partners.

This was done in the best interest of the students, notwithstanding other initiatives that might be possible in the future to create new consortium partners or programs. It was done simply because of the situation we were in and having to deal with students who were continuing clinical placements into the summer and who needed to have certainty for the fall. This was judged by all to be the most appropriate solution for the students who are currently in the program and for the program going forward.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

The students here in September are going to a McMaster or Ryerson program, but are there any conversations with the provincial government to ensure that these students remain in northern Ontario? Time is of the essence here.

McMaster doesn't have any experience, as I said, in a rural context. It doesn't have experience with indigenous or francophone services, so how can this committee and the federal government support Laurentian or support the province? We need a proposal from either Laurentian or the province to support the midwifery program staying in northern Ontario. What can we do to help?

11:20 a.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Laurentian University

Robert Haché

Thank you.

First let me indicate that the students who are in the program will be attending virtually in the fall, so they will not need to physically move to attend the program.

In addition, all of the clinical placements that happen in the north will continue to happen in the north. We did work very carefully with Ryerson and McMaster to ensure that clinical placement opportunities would continue to be available in the north going forward for students who are in the north.

For the students in the francophone program, there will be French language opportunities to allow them to complete their program and to complete their training in French. All of that is being built in and provided as a result of the transition that is occurring.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I'd like to thank the witnesses, Ms. Berger and Ms. Blais, as well as Mr. Haché, for being with us today and reminding us just how important the midwife issue is.

Mr. Haché, you just addressed the issue with my colleague Mr. Serré and talked about the solutions in place. In your opening remarks, one thing you mentioned was redistributing students elsewhere in Canada. You talked about two colleges as well as other possibilities and future agreements.

In your opinion, would student redistribution adequately address the growing need for midwives across the country?

Could you tell us more about this student redistribution?