Status of Women Committee on June 17th, 2021

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, I'm back from the House.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Oh, welcome, Ms. Larouche!

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Today, the Conservative Party brought forward a motion in the House that relates to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, and that's why I wasn't here for the first hour of the meeting.

I want to begin by thanking the witnesses. We all agree that hate and Islamophobia have no place here today, in 2021.

I've already offered my condolences to my colleague the member for London-Fanshawe, who experienced these events in her community. We know that there was a solidarity movement surrounding all of this. I'd like to extend my condolences again to all of the victims, because this is the first time I've spoken as part of this study.

I'd also like to thank Ms. Normandin for filling in for me in the first hour.

Ms. Jafri, you talked about a very interesting factor, interspecific diversity among Muslim women. What recommendations could be made to ensure that this diversity of perspectives among Muslim women is better represented from the perspective of education, discussion and exchange with others? Could you talk more about this diversity?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Hasan.

[Samya Hasan]

I'll fill in for Nuzhat. I know she had to leave.

Thank you for your question. It's a very important question.

We've been talking about diversity within racialized communities. As an organization that serves South Asians, we know first-hand that South Asian communities often are mistaken as a monolith. We're not. There is so much diversity within our communities. The same goes for the Muslim community. There's even more diversity there in terms of the countries people come from, the colour of their skin, the culture they practise, the language they speak, their socio-economic status and their belief system within Islam. Islam is a spectrum of different beliefs. Everybody doesn't have the same belief. There are schools of thought within that belief system. It's extremely, extremely diverse.

I think the best way to go about creating policies, programs and curricula is to have it be community-led and to work with Muslim leaders and diverse Muslim organizations—we've had a diversity of Muslim organizations here on the panel—and see how they want those policies, programs and curricula to be created and developed. Just as it's so important for policies within indigenous communities to be indigenous-led, the same goes for the Muslim community for any policy or program that is created. As an outsider from the community, you're not going to be able to understand the diversity and all the different opinions. I'm a Muslim person and I don't even know all of the different opinions. I can't be a representative of all Muslims in Canada.

I think that is something that should be taken into account and policy-makers should be mindful of.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You're talking about the importance of considering the diverse perspectives that exist within different communities. Indeed, they're not monoliths. Different ways of thinking exist side by side in these communities. I understand that.

We are on the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, but I also had to replace a colleague on the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. During the opening remarks, I heard that institutions like the Canadian Armed Forces and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police need to do more to foster inclusion and diversity.

If these federal institutions were to recruit more people from diverse backgrounds and reach out for different faces, wouldn't that send a strong message?

It could send a message of education and, more importantly, openness.

[Samya Hasan]

In terms of institutions, we've had a really great relationship with the anti-racism secretariat at the federal level. One of the things we have been discussing with them is working with all departments across the federal government. If there are principles and policies that the anti-racism secretariat is setting up, for example, on the collection of race-based disaggregated data, it should be across all federal departments and institutions.

As Amira said this morning, we need to bolster the anti-racism secretariat and give them the resources they need to specialize in, unfortunately, the different forms of racism and hate that exist in this country. They really need to be well resourced to tackle this. I think they would be the body to handle that kind of work, to work across institutions and departments at the federal level on all forms of racism and hate.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In your opinion, could the federal government help prevent crime in any other ways? You mentioned an institution.

How can the government be more supportive of the various communities across the country so that they can take their place? Most importantly, how can it continue to address hate crimes, Islamophobic crimes, and crimes against Asian communities?

Besides the secretariat, do you see any other solutions that would involve the federal government?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Please give a very brief answer.

[Samya Hasan]

Sure.

If I were to choose one thing, I would say it would be the online hate legislation. We know that a lot of the radicalization and anti-Muslim hate is spreading online. It's now or never. We really need that legislation, which we've been waiting for for a very long time, to mandate social media platforms to shut down hate. If they don't, penalties should be assigned to them.

Definitely, the online hate legislation is the biggest ask from me and I know from a lot of the panellists as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I know, Ms. Hasan, that you were listening, but you weren't necessarily as active in the first hour when I asked all the witnesses to comment on that national action summit. I asked what recommendations, what actions, they wanted to see from that summit. I would like to ask you, understanding, of course, that it can be extremely complicated. You talked about the diversity within communities but that being community-led... If you could provide some other recommendations that you would like to see come out of that summit, I would appreciate that.

[Samya Hasan]

Sure.

I think, going back to some of the recommendations that we've made, we actually submitted a list of seven recommendations to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General back in 2020, and I believe we met as well, MP Mathyssen, about those recommendations.

Again, first and foremost, the online hate legislation is paramount, and it's critical and urgent for that to be implemented. I know that Amira spoke a little bit about the victimization portion of the general social survey and having that implemented annually so that we can collect better data on what is going on around hate crimes, hate speech and hate incidents so that we can create better policies to combat them.

We had that discussion at length this morning around mandating curriculum in schools, working with the provinces—I know it is within the jurisdiction of the provinces—to ensure that we have anti-racism curricula. It's not just diversity, inclusion and multiculturalism, which are great—and it happens across the board in Canada where we celebrate different faiths and celebrate differences—but actual anti-racism, anti-oppressive approaches. Some of the witnesses this morning mentioned that it starts in the school system. I grew up in the public school system as well, and I can't count on my fingers the number of times that I had Islamophobic incidents and hate and physical violence against me as a visibly Muslim student.

Those are definitely things that we, as CASSA, have been asking for. We're also part of a larger group called the Anti-Hate Community Leaders' Group. It's a group of over 40 organizations and individuals across Canada that have been pushing for anti-hate legislation and anti-hate policies. We need to send a strong message through this summit—I know it was mentioned this morning as well—from all leaders in this country that Islamophobia will not be tolerated. We've seen on social media that there have been some individuals who have been celebrating the London terrorist attack. There needs to be strong condemnation of those individuals. We need to see that those individuals face consequences for spreading that hate, because that's where it starts. It starts online. It starts in schools.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, unfortunately, and it was mentioned, as well, that when those leaders come out and are racist, it gives permission almost. I've certainly heard that. My office has heard that, unfortunately. We are trying to report that as much as possible. I think it was stated by my leader that hate is like a fire. If you don't extinguish it quickly, it does spread far too quickly.

I want to expand on some of those pieces of legislation that we were talking about before and that you just mentioned. One of the things that we often hear about, too, is the Employment Equity Act. We know that women are still paid a great deal less, but it's even more so when you are a racialized woman. Could you talk about the strengthening of the federal Employment Equity Act and attaching equity measures to all federal investments and recovery programs that we're seeing coming out of COVID to ensure that racialized groups and other under-represented groups have that equality and access to employment, as well as to those resources?

[Samya Hasan]

Thank you for that question, MP Mathyssen.

That is very much connected to the anti-racism efforts that we really need to step up on. On employment equity, as you know, during the pandemic we've seen racialized communities being disproportionately impacted by COVID, partly as a result of their being overrepresented in front-line precarious labour. CASSA did a study over the last three years on South Asian immigrants in Toronto and their trying to secure decent employment. One thing we found was that despite having amazing credentials, having a great education either from here or from back home, they're still struggling to secure decent employment. I'm talking about even something that is above minimum wage, so it's very difficult.

You are right about the gendered aspect of employment equity. Women face even more barriers, especially women who have language barriers, women who are not as fluent in English or who are at home for a long time to take care of household responsibilities and then want to go back into the workforce. There are not a lot of training opportunities for women who have scheduling conflicts. There are a lot of barriers that racialized women face. I think that should be an important part of the employment equity legislation, and there's also working with the province on employment equity legislation.

We know that at the federal level it will only cover a certain portion of the Canadian public. It won't cover all of the population. Work with the provinces as well to push for employment equity legislation on that front.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to Ms. Wong for five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to move on with something we have already touched on, and that is about cyber-violence and cyber-bullying. Because of COVID, a lot of us are online and doing Zoom, and also a lot of our children, young people and people of all ages spend a lot of time online. Definitely that is one consequence of COVID.

Does the persistence of cyber-violence and cyber-bullying contribute to other forms of violence or hate crimes in Canada? If you think so, how? That's for both our witnesses, please.

[Samya Hasan]

I know I've spoken a lot.

Do you want to go, Saadia?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Mahdi, yes.

[Saadia Mahdi]

Yes, thank you.

Definitely the cyber-bullying aspect is very real. With the past year, the pandemic has moved a lot of our kids online. I think that reporting tools would be needed. Not every child is going to go to their parents and open up and tell them what is going on. Like Ms. Hasan mentioned, many parents might not have that language to then go and speak to the educators about it.

For these types of incidents, cyber-bullying, as well as the others we were speaking of before, the reporting has to be something that is accessible, something whereby anything that happens is communicated to the children, to the students, to the educators. Why is such a small percentage of these hate crimes being reported? It needs to be a safe place. People should be able to express what is happening, and they should have the confidence that it will be taken care of and addressed.

I know in our school board, the York Region District School Board, there is a button on the main page of their website called ”Report It”. Unfortunately, many kids joke that nothing's going to happen and say they don't want to use this button and maybe put themselves in a situation where they are vulnerable and now they've made this claim and nothing's going to be done about it. It falls back onto those in leadership positions to tell the children, the students, that they are going to do something about it and they will address their concerns.

On the policing aspect, if the police are trained with all of these issues we've been talking about—intersectionality and the different types of Muslims, the different types of faces of Muslims—and if they are being told that they need to change their approach, the way they're dealing with these communities because they aren't feeling safe and they are reporting these hateful incidents, I think that would be a good first step. Then it will trickle down to the community.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for that insight. That leads to my next question.

If adults feel that there's no use in reporting these hate crimes, especially those against women, that's why they are under-reported. Even the police tell them, “Well, sorry, just stay away from them, and if they come your way, just go away.” This doesn't send a good message to those who are under such pressure.

What would you suggest that the justice system should really look into to make sure that no crime is a small crime, that no hate is a small hate? It also helps to prevent what's going to happen to marginalized women and, especially, in our study right now, women of the Muslim faith.

Again, I open this question to both our witnesses.

[Saadia Mahdi]

Do I have time to answer?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes. Go ahead.

[Saadia Mahdi]

Thank you.

I'm thinking of the program that we have in Ontario. I don't know if it's in other places, but there's a VIP program that the police conduct in schools. It's about drugs and influences. The acronym stands for “values, influences and peers”. The reason it came to my mind is that when a policeman walks into a classroom—especially of sixth graders, let's say—they can create a big impact with what they say. If they go and speak to each classroom and talk about hate crimes and Islamophobia or anti-Black racism, it's going to have a great impact on those young minds.

When we see resources being used for specific areas, we can see the effects. I can see how much that impacted my children and even me as a child in listening to those police officers and talking about making the right choices. If we see that nationally this has become a very big problem, maybe those types of programs need to be done, and they need to be done in a very small one-on-one type of classroom setting. Leaders such as police officers can really make a big difference if they come in and speak about what actually is a hate crime and what would happen if someone felt that way if they were targeted at a young age, and what types of effects that would have on them or, vice versa, on the person who was doing the hate or the cyber-bullying—what would happen to them.

I think it could have a really big impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to Ms. Hutchings.

I think you're sharing your time with Ms. Sidhu and others.