Evidence of meeting #44 for Status of Women in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was society.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
I'm sorry, Ms. Mathyssen, could you raise your microphone closer to your nose. We're getting some popping sounds.
Thank you.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I thought I had done that well before.
Within the workplace, of course, the federal government has an employment equity strategy and act, but there continue to be a lot of racism and accountability problems within that Employment Equity Act.
Can you maybe talk about strengthening that equity act? I know it's only at a federal level, but it would have lots of implications for provincial levels as well, by setting that bar or that standard.... What would be the benefits from that investment in under-represented groups and bringing more of them into that Employment Equity Act?
11:40 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Those are the types of strategies that are critical, because they send a message. I think there is a symbolic benefit to it apart from the practical benefits. When the government sends a message at the highest level of government that this is something that's important to our country, that's important to us as a society and actually legislates it such that there are consequences for.... You can pay lip service to something, and they say that talk is cheap. You can talk the talk or you can walk the walk. Sometimes people need to be given that additional push in order to walk the walk.
That's why I think these programs are very important. They're going to draw criticism. Balancing and all those kinds of things always have to happen. From a symbolic perspective and from a practical perspective, there are huge benefits to those kinds of programs.
Most of my practice, about 90% of it, is employment law. I don't practise at the federal level. Most of my practice is provincially regulated. I see issues and challenges that come up in the workplace all the time. I mostly manage [Technical difficulty—Editor] side. I act for employers and businesses, and understand the day-to-day challenges that employers face. At the same time, it's so important to have diverse workplaces and to have employers who are empowered to know how to manage diverse workforces.
To the extent that there are resources available.... Big corporations that I represent do okay in this sphere. The smaller businesses struggle a little bit more. They don't have the resources and they don't have the time to understand. Often, people will hire from their own communities or those kinds of things.
That being said, I'm seeing more and more that workforces are becoming more diverse. That's just a reflection of Canadian society. We'd like to see management start to reflect Canadian society as well so it's not just the entry-level positions. That's a whole other topic that I could get into sometime, but it's a very good one, so thank you for raising it.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
In getting rid of a lot of the barriers that people of colour, Muslim people, indigenous people and Black people face, but mainly when we talk about new immigrants and the removal of barriers in terms of the requirements within a specific profession, both of you would see that within your individual professions. Perhaps you could talk about the impact that has on the community as well.
11:40 a.m.
Teacher, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at Calgary
Thank you for the question.
It's really important to remove those barriers. I was thinking while Nafisah was talking and I agree with all the points that she brought up. It is important to increase the diversity in the workplace. It is a symbol and gives power to all the diverse groups, just in Canada in general, when we start seeing more diverse workplaces, more diverse schools, more diverse [Technical difficulty—Editor]. It is really important that the people hired are not just viewed as diversity hires, because often they can receive backlash for that from their management, from their co-workers, from various other groups. They might be feeling that as well.
Removing those barriers is very important so that they're able to receive the education, receive the same quality training, receive the same opportunities. Then when they go to those workplaces, they feel confident in their ability to execute whatever their job requirement is, and it's not about, “This one person is Black, and this other person is Muslim. They were hired, but they might not have the qualifications.” Every single person who is in the workplace must have confidence as well, not just the person who is going in.
It's amazing that the workplaces are getting more diverse. Of course there are some that are still plainly one type of ethnic group or [Technical difficulty—Editor] the first person who is entering that workplace. It is really important to have those conversations. Many times that person might not want to be the person who is answering all the questions, representing the whole faith or the whole race, or whatever the situation might be.
When they have that confidence, then removing those barriers is very important, as was mentioned.
Thank you.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Alice Wong Conservative Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I was really impressed by all of the witnesses. Having been a teacher myself and having had a lot of my own students go to law school and having met a lot of wonderful female lawyers, I will say that your performance in fighting for something worth fighting for, because we can all—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
I'm sorry, Ms. Wong. Can you raise your mike closer to your mouth? It's popping.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Alice Wong Conservative Richmond Centre, BC
I'm sorry. Yes.
I think it's important to note that education plays a very important role. You can see that, even with young kids. Some of my own relatives, both boys and girls, come home and say, “They call me bananas” or “They tell me to go back to China.” Actually, they were born here.
I'd just like any of the witnesses today to comment more on the importance of really having that education done. What can the communities do, for example, on the true meaning of different religions? Definitely the international media hasn't helped at all because they only tell horror stories and yes, unfortunately, there are lots of [Technical difficulty—Editor] in the world, but then we were educated by the international media to actually, unfortunately, build our own biases.
Would any of you like to comment more on the education part and on how your community can actually get involved in the classrooms or schools so that they truly understand what Muslim means or how the religion itself is about peace and harmony?
I belong to a multi-faith group in Richmond, and we work so nicely together. We have kids reciting their own literature. It was a beautiful scene, and that whole Number Five Road in Richmond is called the “Highway to Heaven”. We have all religious groups with their temples and schools on the same street. We are very proud of that harmony, but that harmony needs to be built right from a very young age.
Please, any of you, feel free to comment on that.
11:45 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Sure, I'm happy to speak to the issue.
It's been a while since I've been back in the school system. Look, I went through the public school system, right from junior kindergarten through to high school. I grew up in Scarborough, east of Toronto. I guess it's part of Toronto, but on the east side. I don't know if the curriculum has really changed a lot since I went through the system.
What really stood out to me is that it wasn't really part of the curriculum at all. You don't learn about other people's religions, faith systems or cultural practices and those kinds of things. Maybe you pay some lip service here and there for a celebratory event, but in terms of an actual deep dive into what are people's belief systems and these tenets that Canadians live their lives by....
The only time I learned about it was when I was a high school student and I signed up for an elective class, which was [Technical difficulty—Editor], one of my favourite classes. I absolutely loved it. I loved learning about.... I obviously know my own faith tenets, but learning about others was so eye-opening. It was a learning experience that continues to pay dividends now in my career decades later. But it was an elective course. It was me and 25 other students who happened to be in the course. Nobody else was in it. I'm hopeful that from a curricular perspective that more attention will be paid to this for young folks who are coming up through the system so that they're learning these things from a younger age and it's not just 30 people out of a 2,000-person school who are getting this kind of education.
I think that is important. The multi-faith events happen and certainly those who participate I'm sure get a lot from it, but oftentimes you're preaching to the choir. I think that's also true of the world religions classes, for those of us who were interested in taking it, because we obviously had an interest in it and we wanted to learn. We wanted to not be ignorant, wholly ignorant, of these kinds of things.
How do you get to those folks who are not part of this choir? That's the challenge. From an interfaith perspective again, you can't force people into those kinds of programs.
I think, Ms. Wong, you spoke about how we get a lot of training by international media. That's just the reality of our society. If that's the case, the folks who are not in the choir, if that's how they're being educated, then we have to start thinking about how we can ensure that where they do get their education from reflects the education they need to be getting. If that's going to be the source, let's do what we can to ensure that source has the right messaging in it, or at least counter-narratives to the harmful messaging that it contains.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
June 22nd, 2021 / 11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for joining us today.
My question is for Nafisah Chowdhury.
You said in your statement that hate and racism is a disease that we we need to stop. A recent study found that more than 6,000 right-wing extremist channels, pages and accounts on social media are linked to Canadians. I have spoken to members of our local Peel Islamic Cultural Centre, other Muslim community groups, many ethnic groups, and they have expressed concerns about these right-wing groups.
Can you tell us if you believe that the toxic online environment contributes to the recent hate incidents? What are your recommendations to combat that?
11:50 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
The short answer is yes. I think that the online toxicity is a huge contributing factor to the rise in Islamophobia and the rise in racist conduct, quite frankly, beyond Islamophobia.
Again, it's just going back to these echo chambers where people are finding themselves in groups, online discussions or social media channels where the worst elements of their prejudices are being spoken to and being encouraged. Then they're being given a platform to come together, to organize and to attack, unfortunately, upon this hateful messaging. It really is unfortunate that these platforms exist, and it's a very difficult task that government has in terms of trying to regulate it. I understand that it's a difficult task. I understand the challenges that come with it, particularly when we're living in a free and democratic society where freedom of expression is something that, rightfully, we hold dear in our society. We need to toe that line between censorship and tackling things, again, that are actually resulting in death.
There's a harm principle here. As a society.... Decades ago when we first came up with our hate speech laws, these discussions happened. It was recognized and accepted that words can kill. I remember learning in my first-year constitutional law class about screaming “Fire!” in a crowded theatre and the impact that that has. You cause a stampede and people die just from one word. Words do have an impact. When people are finding these forums online that are unregulated and that allow them to, with the cloak of anonymity, proliferate these very, very harmful messages and recruit others into this hateful ideology that they're teaching, it's a problem. There are going to be impacts. There are going to be consequences. People will continue to die, unfortunately, unless we do something about it. We can't expect that, if we just turn a blind eye and pretend that it's not happening, things are going to be better. It won't. It won't get better.
Even though it's a difficult thing for the government to do—to have to regulate, to figure out how to regulate it—it's something that the government must do. I don't envy the task of government, and your task as legislators. You have a difficult road ahead, but it's a critical road that needs to be taken immediately. It can't be sort of put on the back burner.
As a society, as Canadians, we don't shy away from things just because they're hard. We have to do them. That means talking to the people who are experts in this field to come up with a way to have laws, regulations and policies in place that curb that harmful stuff that's going on in a way that still respects our liberties.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Thank you.
My next question is for the representative of Ahmadiyya community. We have an engaged and committed Ahmadiyya community here in Brampton. I commend their work across Canada in fighting hate. We have a vaccine clinic at Masjid Mubarak...raising funds for the community, and we are always grateful for their work.
However, Ms. Choudhry, another aspect of this study is focused on cyber-bullying, which is more frequently experienced by young Canadians. Are you aware of young members of your community being cyber-bullied for their religion?
11:55 a.m.
Teacher, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at Calgary
Many times, with regard to cyber-bullying, those who are going through it keep it private. Many times, even parents.... It can be happening in the same household. Their child can be feeling so many types of emotions and going through so many breakdowns, and they have no idea because when you have a phone, a tablet or whatever you use, you can keep your life very, it seems, in categories: your online world, your impersonal world, your home life, your school life.
In my personal experience, I know that there are people who, when they post things, for example, on Twitter, will get a lot of backlash just because they might be Muslim or just because they might be Ahmadiyya Muslim—especially on Twitter. If you go on Facebook, if you go outside of just your friend group and you post on another forum, if you go on any other type of social media like Instagram, if you're posting on a public picture, there are many, many people who will reply back with hateful things. Oftentimes, it's the same people who are just going to the different social media accounts and going to different posts just to copy and paste their same hateful comments over and over again. They don't want to have a reasonable dialogue with you if you try to engage with them. All they want to do is spew their hate.
I've had that personal experience for sure, but I do believe that the extent of it is not understood by myself or even parents, teachers or whomever it may be because many times people just keep it inside or just accept it as a normal thing that happens online, which is one of the worst things. It shouldn't be accepted as normal.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
Thank you.
We'll now go to Ms. Normandin, then to Ms. Mathyssen.
Go ahead, Ms. Normandin.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Ms. Chowdhury, I'd like to come back to the comment you made in response to my last question. You talked about the preconceived notions that we may sometimes have unconsciously, that can resonate with others and that may be ignored or, worse, condoned.
I’d like your perspective [Technical difficulty—Editor]. The concept of “ordinary sexism” has been developed, which covers small, everyday gestures that go unnoticed but contribute in an insidious way to hatred in general. Our study is on violent crime and online hate. Would it also be appropriate to address what we might call “ordinary Islamophobia”, if such a thing exists?
11:55 a.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes. Absolutely. I think we call it the unconscious bias or microaggression that folks deal with on a day-to-day basis. As women we've all experienced it. I'm sure everyone in this group discussion has experienced what it feels like, as women, to have to deal with these microaggressions. When we're having these kinds of discussions and we're talking about intersectionality, a woman from a marginalized group or racialized community has to deal with the same sorts of microaggressions that may impact them as a woman. Compound that with having to deal with the fact that, on top of that, they are a visible Muslim. If they are a Black Muslim woman, it's one step even worse—they're Black, Muslim and female.
Yes, there absolutely are day-to-day things that we women have to put up with to begin with, and all of the other difficulties or the microaggressions that come with it are layered on. If the government already has a strategy to deal with these things or to look at these things and come up with ways to overcome them, then I would absolutely encourage that. There are other categories, like microaggressions, that come from being a visible Muslim. It's not just women. Muslim men also face it. As diverse communities, we also have to be careful about.... Faakhra has talked about being from the Ahmadiyya community. She's a minority within a minority. That further compounds the issues.
Certainly, there are challenges that we face by being Muslim. I can only speak for myself, but as part of my identity, I feel that more as a Muslim person, as a visible Muslim person, than as a woman. If I had to rank which one I feel the impacts of more, it would be the fact that I have this cloth on my head, which sort of screams to the world what my religious beliefs are, and some of the fallout from that.
I don't know if that answers your question.
Noon
Conservative
Noon
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I think that is key, that intersectionality, and understanding it and applying it to the legislation, ideally, that we bring forward. Certainly, legislation on online hate is well overdue and much required.
This is for both of you. I had put forward what was long asked for by the Muslim community, the national action summit on Islamophobia, which hopefully will occur this summer. I'm asking you to maybe each put forward a couple of recommendations that you would like to see come from that summit, and then the actions taken by the government to fulfill them.
Noon
Teacher, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at Calgary
Thank you for the question.
I'm so glad to hear there is a summit happening in the summer on this topic, because it's so important.
Some of the recommendations I made in my introductory remarks as well, so I can just repeat them quickly.
For me and for my community, monitoring online hate and online hate groups, hate speech, social media and having restrictions on things like this is really important to discuss at the summit. We have gone through those throughout our talk, so I'm sure everyone here is aware of that.
As well, it's really important that in education—we've talked about this as well—we talk about the curriculum, how teachers, professors, are trained, that they be trained properly, and that the curriculum incorporate diverse voices, which doesn't just mean having a math textbook and having a diverse name or having a diverse picture. That is not really diversity in the curriculum. It's having diversity in the curriculum in a proper way, like Nafisah mentioned before.
When I was attending school, kindergarten to grade 12, and university as well in Alberta, there were not many diverse topics. It shouldn't be up to the teachers to sometimes bring in a topic, or sometimes talk about current events, because oftentimes maybe the teachers are also not fully aware of all of the diverse groups of students that are around them and all the diverse groups that are in Canada. They also bring their prejudices and biases. Oftentimes it can feel as though your teacher is misrepresenting your group. When you're a child, when you're a student, you do not feel great at all when your teacher, whom you look up to, who is in charge of 30-plus students in the class, is maybe spewing hate about Muslim groups or Black communities or indigenous groups, or whatever the situation may be.
Teacher training definitely needs to happen, as well as professor training, curriculum changes, and looking at online hate. Thank you.