Status of Women Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Kate Tennier]

I think there are a few reasons for this.

First of all, Andrea mentioned the Gruber, Baker and Milligan report, which, shockingly, Liberal advisers have not brought forth to you. It points out serious concerns in the mental health and behaviour problems that have happened, and we've had 20 years of a universal program in Quebec.

I'm a real feminist. My mother battled the nuns 70 years ago at U of T to get her commerce and finance degrees, and then went on to get a graduate degree in economics. I have four sisters. I have to put this out there. I'm really progressive.

What you're seeing with these universal programs, which I know as a former teacher, is that when you take kids in such low ratios and really cram them into group care at such a young age, the problems often don't show up until later, in the teen years. This is what's happening. I have so much other research I could read to you, but unfortunately the time is limited.

Sweden found, in droves, that the problems showed up in the teen years. Even their own health ministry is very concerned about the high level of suicide, ill behaviour and depression in teens. The largest parents protest group in Sweden actually wanted to join our group and make a complaint to the United Nations to say that unless parents had the right to look after their own children, problems that didn't show up until the teen years were the result of a universal program.

Simply put, you are not putting enough adults in little kids' lives. You are basically corralling kids, on the cheap, to raise them.

[Andrea Mrozek]

Could I jump in as well?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Yes.

[Andrea Mrozek]

I think the Quebec model should be measured against the standards of universal child care advocates and activists. They have goals such as quality and universality. We've used the word “universal”, but only 30% of children in Quebec have access to those spaces. Economist Pierre Fortin has said that there's a two-tier system there and that quality spaces are not accessible. Again, after 20 years, one would assume that this kind of thing could be ironed out if it were possible.

The model that we're looking to emulate in Canada is neither universal nor quality, according to peer-reviewed research. The quality question is not up for debate. It's something that advocates for such a system speak about at their conferences, and they discuss how to improve it, finally, for children.

[Kate Tennier]

I'll just add to what Andrea said.

Just last month an article in iPolitics, in referencing the Auditor General of Quebec, said:

Quebec budgets $2.4 billion a year for daycare, but still doesn’t offer enough subsidized spaces to meet the needs of Quebec families.

The article further said:

While originally designed to give children from low-income families a better start in life, such children are under-represented in Montreal and Laval daycares....

To Andrea's point, 20 years later it's not even doing what it was supposed to be doing.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

To follow up on that question, why would the Quebec model be more likely to fail outside of Quebec?

Andrea.

[Andrea Mrozek]

I've spoken a lot about ensuring that we respect the unique cultures, traditions and history of the places we come from. Quebec has more of a social democratic history. It may be the one place in Canada where such a system could work better.

I am in favour of provincial jurisdiction and it is important on this issue, so Quebec is certainly free to follow a model that suits it. But Canada outside of Quebec does not have the same tradition. We do not have the same desire toward conformity, toward becoming Québécois. We do not have language goals. We have a diversity of immigrants, newcomers and refugees, people who come from ethnic backgrounds, people who come from different places, who desire to raise their children in a very broad diversity of ways. I believe it is very unlikely we will ever have enough money to fund that kind of diversity for the rest of Canada.

There is an established literature in academic literature in Quebec that talks about assimilationist goals and uniformity for people coming into Quebec, and that kind of thing is not present in the rest of Canada. From coast to coast to coast, we have diversity and have people, again, coming from elsewhere who desire to raise their children in very unique and diverse ways. They should not be discriminated against because they don't desire to use spaces in a child care system.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Do you have anything to add—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We'll go to Ms. Sidhu, for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

As a member of the committee, I know this year marks the 50th anniversary of the report of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women, an important milestone to remind us what has been accomplished since then and the work that remains to advance gender equality. We often take for granted how far we have to come, and the report expressly states that expanding child care is crucial.

I'm from Brampton, and in my riding alone, 24,000 children receive the Canada child benefit. We know we need to do more, and when I'm speaking with my residents, they know that. When 24,000 children come out of poverty with the Canada child benefit, it's a big help.

What role would the federal government have in how things work in the provinces and territories so families can find good-quality services? Day cares are not open because parents are afraid of COVID-19. How can the federal government play a role?

My question is for Ms. Mrozek. Can you explain that to me?

[Andrea Mrozek]

Do you mean how the federal government can play a role in helping families?

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Yes, in particular when helping, and working with, the provincial and territorial governments.

[Andrea Mrozek]

I think the role for the federal government is to establish very flexible standards so that in any bilateral agreement, the provinces can have a choice in how to use any money the federal government is giving.

You mentioned the CCB. It's not expressly a child care benefit, but money for parents. It's also a very effective way of ensuring that people have increased resources to establish and create the diversity of care they prefer in their communities.

You also spoke of being from Brampton. I think intergenerational care happens in homes there, with grandparents living with families and kids. Again, some of this is based on cultural preference.

I think universal child care was always a bad idea. I think it's a particularly bad idea in a pandemic, because under these circumstances, parents are keeping their kids out of schools and out of spaces to protect elders living in their homes. It is short-sighted to try to capitalize off the pandemic to create a so-called universal system that people are not choosing to use.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Many of my residents are in the trucking business and in manufacturing and food processing, and most of them have elders. They can provide child care. Money from the Canada child benefit is also helping those families.

I know we need child care. That is why it was in the throne speech. I was very impressed when I heard that.

The “National Progress Report on Early Learning and Child Care 2017–18” states:

Research shows that high-quality child care supports positive child-development outcomes, particularly among children from disadvantaged families. Studies indicate that high-quality early learning and child care (ELCC) has positive effects on child cognitive and social development, improves school-readiness, and creates a foundation for lifelong learning.

Ms. Mrozek, can you explain to the committee whether women hit hard by the pandemic who don't have the luxury of affording private care and don't have family members to depend on will be realistically able to participate in the workplace with a publicly supported child care system?

[Andrea Mrozek]

You spoke a lot about high-quality care. What we've seen through peer-reviewed research is that we don't establish high-quality care via the universal system. I'm very concerned that we would be replicating essentially a mediocre quality of care for families across the country.

I think we need to turn back to the data. When we look at those who are unable to access care today, we find from Statistics Canada that while it can be very stressful and while a third of parents say they have a hard time, only 3% say they are not finding the child care they need in order to return to the work circumstances they desire.

You also mentioned elders caring for kids. I don't happen to live near family, but I do think that kin care is a very important aspect of child care provision. We have peer-reviewed research that suggests kin care is more effective and of higher quality than spaces in centres. I advocate strongly for a greater provision of monies for families to be able to support elders as family members and community-based members so they can help with child care needs in parental and non-parental child care.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

How do you think the isolation of kids is impacting women? I know Kids Help Phone is there. Do you think the help line is helping many kids?

[Kate Tennier]

Sorry, but are you talking to me?

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

No. This is for Ms. Mrozek.

[Andrea Mrozek]

I don't know a lot about Kids Help Phone, but I know that isolation is a tough thing.

I did a research article discussing what parents need to be concerned about with regard to the really high rate of home-schooling happening during the pandemic. That's available at cardus.ca, and I reference Dr. Gordon Neufeld, who is a foremost expert on attachment and learning and in helping parents have a bit less stress over that, particularly for children under six. While it's difficult to have a new normal form of home-schooling, there are advantages that can come from not being in a school-based environment, so I recommend that article.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but that's your time.

Now we'll move to Madam Larouche for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who have the courage to state their point of view.

However, you'll understand that, as a member of Parliament from Quebec, I can't agree with everything said today. Any of the witnesses can answer my questions.

I'll start with my point of view. It should be noted that Quebec chose to establish a child care service. Quebec wanted to implement many more social democratic measures and to take care of its people. I think that this characteristic is unique to Quebec and that we stand out from the other Canadian provinces. In Quebec, we clearly made this choice.

I gathered the following information on Pierre Fortin. I'm very familiar with him since I'm from Quebec and I've read several of his studies, especially his economic studies. He worked very hard to show the positive impact of a child care system. I'll share a few figures with you, since the study is only a few years old. The study states as follows:

Quebec simultaneously stood out in terms of the development of the women's participation rate. In 1996, the participation rate for mothers in Quebec was four points lower than the rate for mothers in other provinces. Since then, the rate has increased much faster than elsewhere. By 2011, it exceeded the Canadian average. The increase in women's employment in Quebec particularly affected mothers with children under the age of 15 and single parents.

Women who were single parents and who wouldn't have been able to break out of the vicious cycle of poverty managed to do so as a result of the child care system.

The study goes on to state as follows:

Our review of the studies published to date on the issue led us to estimate that, in 2008, approximately 70,000 mothers were working specifically as a result of Quebec's reduced-contribution child care program. We estimated that this influx of employed women led to an increase of about $5.1 billion in Quebec's domestic income, or GDP, in that year.

This isn't negligible. However, I want to hear your views. Clearly, we made this choice in Quebec. The provinces of Canada can decide what they want to do. However, we want the right to opt out with full compensation in order to comply with this model, which even draws the envy of the international community.

[Andrea Mrozek]

I am not sure if there is a response necessary or even particularly a question, but I do stand by the provincial jurisdiction of the nature of child care. Understanding Quebec has their system, I would speak briefly to the return of women to the workforce after instituting such a system. I believe that the Quebec stats were different, as the member said. They were lower than the Canadian average for women's waged work labour force participation and then they rose to increased. Certainly we saw increased labour force participation in Quebec.

There's a reason, in peer-reviewed research, to believe that wouldn't necessarily be the case in the rest of Canada, because we already have a very high labour force participation. I also don't necessarily think that in an age of attempting economic recovery that burden needs to fall on the shoulders of mothers of young children.

[Kate Tennier]

I'm going to add in terms of other areas, other provinces having their own jurisdiction, the option that Andrea and I are talking about is direct support from the government to continue the great diversity of care that we have across the country, with refundable tax credits, because right now with subsidies, a lot of poor parents, poor mothers, don't know how to access those.

Refundable tax credits are very democratic, very fair, put money right into poor mothers' hands. Right now during the pandemic, as a teacher, what I'm seeing is that more wealthy parents are able to pool their resources, create a bubble and bring in a tutor for their children. When we talk about the issue that Ms. Sidhu brought up about social isolation, what the federal government really needs to do is quickly roll out direct support to parents so they can hire their own tutor, get two or three families together, and we've knocked out the social isolation, knocked out the issue of kids falling behind scholastically. That is the way to create equity across the country.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

Local entrepreneurs told me about the difficulties with finding child care spaces as people return to work. I want to remind you that Quebec's family policy model has been held up as an example around the world. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development highlighted the model in its most recent report on social inequalities.

Current research is also unanimous. Quebec's universal low-fee child care system launched 20 years ago has had a tremendous leverage effect on the use of child care services and on the participation rate of mothers with young children. The economist Pierre Fortin came here in 2017 to share the good news. Quebec has become the world champion when it comes to the participation rate of young women, ahead of the Swiss, and the previous leaders, the Swedes.

I understand that we made a different choice in Quebec. However, it worked for us. I want to hear the witnesses' views on this. Clearly, measures taken with regard to children are important for economic recovery. During the pandemic, the mental load of women increased significantly. They had to manage many things at once. I'm thinking of teleworking and having children at home, not to mention health standards. All these things affected their mental load. Many organizations are focusing on this issue.

I want to hear your views on the mental load of women who are now at home.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but that's your time.

We'll go to Ms. Mathyssen now for six minutes.