Status of Women Committee on Dec. 12th, 2022

[Kurt Weaver]

It's the age-old idea that you're not going to pull the player who's injured, because you need them for the last five minutes of the game.

They should not be the person who makes the decision of whether the player comes off or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We'll now turn it over to Andréanne Larouche for the next six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who came today to tell us about their experiences. They contribute to what I hope will become a change in culture for women and girls in sport.

Ms. Clermont-Dion, I saw you react strongly during the testimony from victims. I'm curious to hear what you have to say, as you yourself are a survivor, and yet you are now working with players in the Quebec Major Junior hockey league.

What are your first impressions of what you are hearing from people today?

[Dr. Léa Clermont-Dion]

I'd say that what I am reacting to is abuse of power. People definitely need to be made more aware of these issues surrounding people in positions of authority and power, but another thing that's needed is to appropriately establish a real and effective system to make coaches and people in positions of power accountable.

In addition to the need to introduce an accountability process, there should be a place people could go to make a complaint rather than fall back on the reporting process. For example: Ms. Horn-Miller's coach should have assumed responsibility for his actions. What I find somewhat fascinating, although it doesn'treally surprise me, is the silence and complicity of people who were in positions of authority, and whose behaviour seemed to trivialize incidents of sexual violence.

I'd like to go back to my main message from earlier, which is that blaming the victims is very widespread, as are reports of domination. Having myself made a complaint against a person in a position of authority — I was a trainee and he was my boss — I saw the system at work, even though it was not a sports setting. It was someone who had recognition, and who had power over me.

I was therefore able to see the abrogation of responsibility on the part of a number of people in positions of authority. This kind of behaviour can be seen in all settings. What's therefore required is an independent venue to which complaints can be made when the reporting system is not working.

Of course there is also the fear of reporting, which is related to the fear of displeasing and of not doing the right thing. People also don't want to show that they are not part of the team. That's a change in mentality that has to be made permanent. Discussions and awareness are needed, but also sanctions. Education on its own is not enough; sanctions are needed to

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In your address, you spoke about education and professionalization, but you also appeared to understand the current mistrust victims have towards the system and the need to have this trust if you're going to complain. People are unfamiliar with the system, but there is also some mistrust. I'd like it if you could address these points.

Many athletes and representatives of organizations came to testify before the committee over the past few weeks. With a view to restoring this trust, most people were asking that an independent commission of inquiry be established to shed light on the toxic situation currently affecting the world of sport.

Given your progress to date, I'd like to know whether you agree with what many athletes and sports groups are demanding from the government, which is to set up an independent commission of inquiry.

[Dr. Léa Clermont-Dion]

An independent commission of inquiry is indeed absolutely essential. It's one of the long-term solutions. We've discussed it, and the problem is systemic and widespread, not just anecdotal as it has always been perceived previously. What we have heard and seen today is only the tip of the iceberg.

How many people won't speak out? People don't necessarily have the opportunity to talk to us today about what happened. How many Canadian women have been subjected to countless instances of abuse? It's a very large number.

This commission is therefore necessary. Political will is also needed to change the system in a lasting manner. We are currently experiencing an unprecedented transformation of society. Without the #MeToo movement, we wouldn't be condemning this violence today, and yet it's necessary.

The solution will require more than just the traditional legal avenue. When you're a victim, whether an athlete or otherwise, what options are there to make a complaint? There are the courts. However, I believe that in many communities, people don't trust the police, and rightly so. So that first option is not always appropriate. The other is a system that strikes us as rotten and unreliable, when all is said and done.

This inquiry is absolutely essential if we are to find realistic and appropriate ways of moving things forward.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There's a great deal of talk at the moment about a review of the Canadian Sport Policy, which is to be tabled by the Minister of Sport in February.

However, if this policy is reviewed without an independent commission of inquiry that would look at the entire system from the outside, how could it possibly respond to what victims are asking for?

[Dr. Léa Clermont-Dion]

That's a good question.

What we really need to do is listen to the victims, who may come up with various solutions. We need to return to the base for that, because it needs more than a minor review. Extensive consultation across Canada is required to better understand these highly complex and sensitive problems, which are so hard to pin down within each organization. There's a lot of housekeeping to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'll now pass it over to Leah Gazan for six minutes.

Go ahead, Leah.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you to everybody here today, and thank you, Waneek, for sharing your story.

As I've said in other panels, everybody is shocked, but we knew about this. There were so many documentaries over the years, and people were complacent, including federal governments, provincial governments and the sports community. That's unacceptable.

Waneek, you said you were told to be quiet before you began. This seems to be a common occurrence. When you went forward to try to do something, you were told again by veterans, coaches and officials to just focus on yourself. Is this common practice?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

It's definitely common practice within Water Polo Canada. It's in any hierarchical system that has an “old boys' club”.

We have a small enough community that everybody knows each other, so these coaches protect each other. This particular coach had sexual relations with a 15-year-old goalie when he was 30. He's well known. He spread herpes to other players and we heard about it. We all knew each other. We were all in the change rooms.

I remember my mother asking, “Do you really want to do this?” I said, “This is the only place I can do this and I love my sport so much.” I was vulnerable and was willing to go at it, but I felt it is what it is.

For an indigenous person, this is what it's like in pretty much every aspect of our lives. I knew I was going to face something. You just head into it and try to withstand as much as you can. I withstood as much as I could until I couldn't withstand it anymore. I believe I made it into the hall of fame not because I was the best player in the world or the best player Canada ever produced. I made it into the hall of fame because I withstood a sports system.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

You said something that I found grotesque. You went forward and filed a complaint against the very coach who was funded by Sport Canada in an executive position.

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

Yes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

As we go through the testimony, it's becoming very clear to me.... I'll give you an example. In Manitoba, we have a child welfare system riddled with issues. Kids actually die in the system in Manitoba. Most of the kids in the child welfare system are vulnerable to the systems that have been put in place, which fail to protect them. It seems to me that all the systems—Sport Canada and all these different organizations—have been put in a position. They are not protecting children or young adults. It has become more clear to me.

In Manitoba, we have something called the children's advocate. It's an independent body from the child welfare system and the province.

Do you think having a totally independent body is critical to ensuring the safety of young children and young adults in sport?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

I recommended having that role years ago to one of the sport ministers I was meeting with. I said they needed an independent person who was going to oversee athletes and who could speak out on their behalf. I want it particularly because I interface with the sport system and hear what indigenous athletes go through. A lot of them often talk to me about the racism and alienation they experience. We need someone to speak out, support them and be there with them.

Often these sports, whether it's water polo, judo or whatever else, are so small and everyone knows each other. That's the problem. You can't expect them to really police themselves, especially when a culture is accepted and everybody knows about it. I think we need an external person to do oversight, but also to be an ear and have athletes not just checked on when there's a problem, but checked on all the time to see what's working and what's not working.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have one other question.

You said people give up their lives for sport and that you're employees of the federal government. You have no benefits. You have no protections. You have no job security. You have no human rights protections.

The federal government is currently funding organizations that clearly have not responded adequately to address the crisis. Do you think the federal government needs to look at its funding structure and at who's being funded currently and restructure it to respond to this crisis? I know people have been calling for an independent review. Do you think we could find out how to do that in an independent review?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

There are multiple facets to the answer I want to give you.

For instance, when an athlete gets on a national team, they get a carding cheque from Heritage Canada. You have to sign an agreement. You have to sign your life away to get that carding cheque or you don't get it. There should be some protection for that.

Also, depending on how many Olympics you go to.... If you're lucky enough to be like my husband, you go to four. How many years did he put his career on hold? He then had to go back into the work world and was looked at like he'd been doing nothing for 16 years, as if he hadn't been among the top five in the world in his sport.

Why aren't we being treated like what we are? We are ambassadors for this country as we travel around the world. Canada will invest in us as soon as we're producing, but at the end of it, we have nothing to walk away with, not even mental health. We get two months of mental health support after our career is over. Can you believe that?

There are some best practices that exist around the world. In many other countries, athletes are members of the military and get benefits the entire time. They have a pension building up the entire time they're competing, so they can decide when they're done. They can continue in that world or can leave with some sort of financial security.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

As you can see, we're short on time. It will be three minutes, three minutes, one minute and one minute.

Anna, you have three minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for sharing your stories with us. I know it's not easy.

I'm going to address my question to Ms. Horn-Miller.

You mentioned the Time magazine article. How did that come about?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

It was the Olympic edition of Time magazine, when there was a Canadian Time magazine. I was asked to be on the cover for a couple of reasons. Women's water polo was finally in the Olympics 100 years after the men's sport was in the Olympics. Also, I was an indigenous athlete and it was 10 years after the Oka crisis. I was asked to pose on the cover, and I was nude.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Do you think that hindered your opportunities?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

Did it hinder my opportunities? People remember it. Did it hinder me in the memory of Canadians? No, but it put a bull's eye on me, as I was the face of water polo. I think about that. I was given that opportunity. I really wanted a chance to promote my sport, and I wanted people to know about water polo.

I brought that opportunity back to my team and asked them what they thought. I wouldn't have done it if they'd said no. I was part of a team, and when you pick out one player and highlight them, it can be problem. They said, “If there's any chance for water polo to get any publicity, that's great.” That's why I did it.

I was hoping to promote my sport as well as myself, an indigenous woman. I wanted people to know. It was 10 years after the Oka crisis, during which I was stabbed by a Canadian soldier. I wanted the world to know that number one, you can try to kill us but you can't, and that number two, I was one of the best athletes in the world in my sport. It was an opportunity for me as an indigenous person to highlight my people.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

You mentioned that the coaches who abuse continue to go on coaching and that Sport Canada is obviously dysfunctional. That's from the conversations we're getting from our witnesses, not just you. Many other witnesses are saying the same thing. They're dysfunctional, and I have to agree. An independent body would help prevent these coaches from continuing.

Would you agree that to ensure this behaviour doesn't continue, they should be charged?

[Waneek Horn-Miller]

The court case is quite interesting, because there's one particular coach whom I do believe should be charged. However, as we all know, victims coming out and testifying after many years.... I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It's awful. I worked on the national inquiry into MMIWG. It is traumatizing, over and over again.

I think he should absolutely be charged. He was also an employee of the City of Montreal. He's not being held accountable. Nobody is being held accountable for the mistreatment of these athletes. Something has to be done legally.

I also believe it's in the hands of the victims. They're going to have to testify. I don't believe the current justice system is going to do them justice. It's just going to retraumatize them.

I'm not exactly sure how to move forward, but I'm not sure that's the only way we should move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We'll now move to Emmanuella for three minutes. She is online.