Transport Committee on Nov. 30th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. This is meeting number 39.

For the acknowledgement of our members, this will be a video recording. Orders of the day are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of Canada's enforcement of air safety regulations and implementation of safety management systems for the aviation industry.

Joining us today from the Department of Transport we have Mr. Marc Grégoire, assistant deputy minister, safety and security group; and Martin Eley, director general, civil aviation.

Welcome, gentlemen. You've been here before, so I presume you know the routine. You'll present, and then we'll go around the table with questions.

Mr. Grégoire, the floor is yours.

[Marc Grégoire, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Before I get into my formal statement, I would like to extend our sincere condolences to those affected by yesterday's crash in British Columbia.

I would also like to introduce Mr. Martin Eley more completely, in his first appearance at this committee. I'm sure it won't be his last either. He has been our new director general of civil aviation since May 4, 2009. Mr. Eley has held positions of increasing responsibility in the civil aviation organization since 1982. Prior to his appointment as director general, he was director of the national aircraft certification branch, and as such, he was a member of the management team of civil aviation for the last eight years. Mr. Eley is a professional engineer and an associate fellow of the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute.

My remarks today will describe the current civil aviation safety program, our role as regulator and industry's role. I will also provide information about areas of the program that have been reviewed by other parties, such as the Auditor General and other international civil aviation authorities.

I hope that this information will help to focus your study. Although we have a solid aviation safety record, there is always room to improve the already high level of aviation safety in Canada. As the second largest national aviation system in the world, Canada is considered a world leader in the international aviation community. That's an important point because virtually all technical, operational and licensing standards in the world are in line with the International Civil Aviation Organization's Standards and Recommended Practices.

This environment has been created to ensure, as much as possible, the seamless international flow of aviation activity.

Let me explain ICAO's role. It is a standards setting organization. It has never been a prescriptive body or an enforcement organization. The standards and guidance material developed by ICAO allow for flexibility so that individual members can have measures in place that reflect their operational reality. Member states, including Canada, use these standards and guidance as an adaptable tool kit to improve civil aviation at the domestic level. International requirements define what we do in Canada when setting strategic policy direction and developing regulations and standards where they are required. Transport Canada uses a consultative approach, where everyone has the opportunity to provide input on regulatory changes as they are being developed. Public comments to regulatory proposals as part of the pre-publication process in part 1 of the Canada Gazette are also an important aspect of our consultation.

Once the regulations make it through the consultative process, the Canadian aviation regulations and associated standards provide the legal framework within which the aviation safety program operates.

Transport Canada delivers Canada's civil aviation safety program. Using risk management techniques, we develop regulations, standards, guidelines, and education to promote a safe and harmonized aviation system for Canadians, for air travellers in Canada, and for Canada's aviation industry as a whole.

Aviation safety oversight is risk-based and supports the aviation industry's compliance with our regulations. Transport Canada provides services to the aviation industry based on the Canadian aviation regulatory framework in areas such as issuing personal licences, medical assessments required for the certification of licensed aviation personnel, issuing operating certificates to organizations, and certification of aeronautical products.

While the end product is the delivery of a certificate, a license, or some other document to an aviation stakeholder, the underlying purpose is for Transport Canada to be reasonably assured that individuals, organizations and aeronautical products can operate safely and in compliance with applicable requirements.

Transport Canada conducts ongoing surveillance of these aviation stakeholders to monitor compliance with the regulatory framework. This is done primarily through assessments and inspections, audits when more information is required, and enforcement action, when necessary.

At Transport Canada we take our oversight role very seriously. Make no mistake, if an air operator is not following the rules, that operator is not allowed to continue working. For this we hold the aviation industry accountable. They must operate safely, complying with the regulations, or face enforcement action. When there are regulatory infractions, they are subject to a firm but fair approach to enforcement.

Regulations require companies to use a systems approach to manage the safety of their organizations. This means implementing safety management systems. The guiding principle of SMS is that the companies must implement procedures that allow them to operate in a safe manner and identify potential issues in order to correct them and prevent accidents or incidents.

The first phase of implementation of these regulations for the commercial aviation sector of the industry, which carries 95% of the travelling public, was in 2005, with large airports and the air navigation system providers coming on in 2007.

We have recently made adjustments to the schedule for the introduction of these regulations to allow more time for smaller operators to prepare for implementation. Specifically, that means the regulations have been delayed until January 2011 at the earliest. This time will also allow us to improve the tools that our inspectors use to conduct oversight and to provide more training to inspectors.

It is worth noting that ICAO is currently developing a standard and recommended practices for a state safety program. Canada already has the main elements in place—regulations, standards, guidelines, and education—to promote a safe and harmonized aviation system. We anticipate that when it comes into effect, Canada will be well placed to meet this ICAO standard.

In addition to the international recognition of our leadership on a systems approach to safety, there have been a number of independent conclusions that we are on the right track. In her May 2008 audit report of Transport Canada's transition to safety management systems--more specifically, our implementation strategy--the Auditor General recognized Transport Canada's leadership role in implementing SMS and the international recognition it has received. More recently, the European Aviation Safety Agency determined that our system is equivalent to theirs. They have described this to us as a confidence-building exercise.

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board recently recommended, in two accident investigation reports, the adoption of SMS. It also recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration mandate the use of SMS for commercial operators. In recent reports, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada has also recognized the benefits of a systems approach to safety.

The history of aviation has been one of continuous change. In order for change to be successful, it is important to have support from all levels of the organization. The delay in the implementation schedule we've imposed will allow more time to refine oversight tools for our staff based on the experience gained during the assessments of the larger operators and to enhance training.

Let me conclude by saying that we've listened to the concerns that have been voiced, that we will continue to listen, and that we are making adjustments to keep moving the program forward. The department welcomes this public discussion on aviation safety. Public confidence is a key measure of our commitment to aviation safety.

Thank you for your time. We look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, Mr. Grégoire.

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Grégoire and Mr. Eley.

Welcome back to our committee, Mr. Grégoire. We have already had the pleasure of exchanging some views about safety management systems.

Notwithstanding everything you just said, apparently there's a press release out today that says Transport Canada halted its decision to roll out the aviation safety management system. In an e-mail dated November 13--that's two weeks ago--it cited common concerns about SMS amongst Transport Canada inspection staff.

Is this a bogus item, or is it in fact true?

[Marc Grégoire]

No, that e-mail was written by Martin Eley after discussion with me and others. We decided to postpone the implementation for small commercial operators, the operators who fall under Canadian aviation regulations—or CARs—703 and 704. These are operators who are flying airplanes with fewer than 20 passengers. CAR 703 is for up to 9 passengers, and it's 10 to 19 passengers for a CAR 704 operator.

We stopped this for a number of reasons, but mainly after discussion with a number of our inspectors and the unions representing our inspectors—which I gather you will see right after us—claiming that we have a few things to fix before we move ahead.

Most importantly--

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You accepted those things.

[Marc Grégoire]

We accepted that and we delayed the implementation.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Excuse me, Monsieur Grégoire, but you'll recall that when you came before this committee in the past, the big concern of committee members, or at least a good number of committee members, as well as some of the intervenors was that you would not have sufficient inspectors to ensure the mechanical integrity of the equipment as well as doing the audits.

If my recollection serves me correctly, you and your colleagues insisted always that there would be a sufficient number of inspectors and there would not in fact be a diminution of numbers. However, it would appear that you have about 115 to 130 vacancies yet to be filled from an inspection side, and secondly, you've moved a lot of your inspectors to an audit assessment side of the business. Are you surprised that you had such concerns?

[Marc Grégoire]

We have a number of vacancies. That number has been reduced lately. We are in the process now of hiring about 60 inspectors, so we think by the end of next summer we will have filled all these positions.

The number of vacancies is now below 100. We have 98 vacancies at this point in time. We still think we have enough inspectors positioned to handle the workload, but we will reassess this in the future.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

In previous presentations before this committee you acknowledged that the SMS could be worthwhile only if you maintained—the government maintained, the department maintained—the funding for a number of inspectors, which was deemed already borderline when you appeared before the committee. Now you have, by your acknowledgment, 98 fewer than you had then.

You know the concern on safety issues by all the intervenors was that you would not be able to maintain the integrity of the mechanical functionality of the industry if you didn't dedicate your time and your resources to spot inspections and recurring inspections, both for small operators and for the major carriers.

Don't you think this internal memo that Monsieur Eley distributed really indicates that you have come to grips with the realization that you have a problem and that Canadians might be right to question the safety of the equipment on which they travel?

[Marc Grégoire]

No, I am not ready to draw such a conclusion. In fact, the opposite might be better for me to say. I think the public can be totally reassured in flying what they fly mostly now—that is, 95% of the travelling public fly with companies that are under regulation under SMS. Since 2005, Air Canada, down to every operator that operates airplanes with 20 passengers or more, has been under SMS.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I've been doing the math in my own mind, Mr. Grégoire. If 95% can feel more or less assured, given about 60 million movements around the country, that leaves roughly three million Canadians up the proverbial creek, so to speak, because they're buying a lottery ticket every time they get on a plane. You're saying that this is okay?

[Marc Grégoire]

No, no. Canada has one of the safest safety records in the world. We compare favourably with any other civilized nation in this world. Our accident rate in fact is lower than anywhere else in any other continent, and still we want to implement SMS to save more lives, to reduce the rate of accidents, and to make the skies safer.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The only way you can make the sky safer is to reduce those accidents, at least the predictable ones, down to zero. Mechanical and personnel issues associated with safety in the business are the ones that at least this committee addressed, and you were here; we talked about those things very seriously. I think, quite frankly, telling me that we have a good record, and 95% are covered by our good record.... We're not sure what that means. That's still three million travellers, or three million trips--call it one and a half million travellers, assuming they want to go back from where they came from, who aren't covered by any of these measures. That sounds to me like a department and, if I dare say it, a minister who is not all that attentive to the safety issues facing the Canadian travelling public, at least as far as the aviation industry is concerned.

[Marc Grégoire]

I'm not sure I understand correctly your question. Are you asking why we're delaying?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

My question is this. Judge Moshansky appeared before this committee and said you can go ahead with the audit process, but if you don't have the inspectors in place, you're just putting the public at risk.

[Marc Grégoire]

We have the inspectors in place; we have 878 inspector positions. There are 98 vacancies at this point in time, and I just told you we are staffing those positions and we will be up by the end of the summer to full staff. So there's no plan to reduce the number of inspectors whatsoever.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Grégoire and Mr. Eley.

Mr. Grégoire, the committee has had ample opportunity to discuss the Safety Management System.

Your regulatory regime concerns me. If you recall, the ICAO conducted an initial assessment of your Safety Management System in 2006. At the time, their biggest concern was accountability issues. So then, this was already a concern following the 2006 assessment. We had an opportunity to discuss this matter.

A few days ago, you announced that you were postponing the system's roll-out—and I probably have to agree with that announcement. However, there is one long-standing problem to contend with, namely regulatory enforcement and the obligation to be accountable. Are you aware of this problem?

[Marc Grégoire]

Yes, but we will still continue to enforce the act. We will continue to monitor operators' compliance with the regulations.

Over the past year, we have conducted SMS assessments of Canada's major carriers. We will be completing our work by the end of March. We hope to use the lessons learned to improve the instruction and training we provide to our inspectors.

Some employees may have mistakenly thought that we decided to stop enforcing certain parts of the act. We are also meeting at this time with employees from across the country to reassure them that we are keeping all of our tools and will continue to use them in the future.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

However, Mr. Grégoire, when ICAO officials testified before our committee, they agreed with us that a parallel inspection system maintained by Transport Canada was required. I'm sure you agree with me on that score. That was the recommendation put forward and the government committed to implementing it as well.

[Marc Grégoire]

Absolutely and that is what we are doing.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Later on, representatives of the Union of Canadian Transport Employees will be coming here to testify that as we speak, there are 115 vacant positions in the air inspection and safety division. We will also hear from them that inspectors are no longer inspecting aircraft.

During the course of our discussions with ICAO officials, I understood them to say that a parallel inspection system was needed, including one for aircraft inspections. Therefore, you will need to convince me if later on, your own employees report to us that aircraft are no longer being inspected. You are telling me that you still inspect them. Is that right?

[Marc Grégoire]

For the past 15 of 20 years, planes have been inspected by the carriers.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Nevertheless, there used to be an inspection system that enabled you to conduct from time to time...