Evidence of meeting #14 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was helicopter.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Somen Chowdhury  Executive Committee Member, International Helicopter Safety Team
Sylvain Séguin  Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team
Kenneth Dunlap  Director, Security and Travel Facilitation (Global), International Air Transport Association

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

You need only answer in English, that will not be a problem. You only need to pick the translation channel. Do you have it? Okay?

My question is for you, Mr. Dunlap.

I get the feeling that you are well informed about reports or discussions that we had in committee, particularly with the CATSA. In your presentation, you told us that, in December 2009, Canada had the longest waiting times in the world at the security checkpoints. You know that, when I put the question to the CEO of the CATSA, he told me that it was identical throughout the world, that the wait times in Canada were no longer than elsewhere. However, I agree with you: People wait longer in Canada.

I also agree with you on the issue of body scanners. In fact, we heard the head of security in Israeli airports tell us that these scanners were not even being used in Israel. And yet, that country has been able to deal with passengers and security.

I don't want you to hold back in your answer. It is my impression, given the way things work at CATSA—contract staff, not enough staff—that if there was still a security issue, the waiting times would be interminable. Am I right or wrong?

9:50 a.m.

Director, Security and Travel Facilitation (Global), International Air Transport Association

Kenneth Dunlap

Yes, you're absolutely right.

Let me just offer a little perspective on the information that we received concerning delays after December 25. Five hours and thirty minutes was the longest delay in Canada; three hours was the average. In Europe our airlines were reporting that delays were about two hours per flight. Asia-Pacific was reporting roughly one hour of delay per flight.

Every metric that was reported to us was unequivocal: the longest delays in the world were here. We attribute that to lack of coordination between the two governments, those of the United States and Canada.

We certainly think that emergency events such as December 25 can be planned for, to the extent that you can do prior planning, prior coordination, establish lines of communication, and essentially develop playbooks and game plans. I think the situation demonstrates that such a type of prior coordination was not in place. Again, that's something that we would encourage both governments to work on, so that we don't have the same kinds of passenger delays.

You spoke about Mr. Sela's testimony, I believe, from a week or two ago. One of our concerns with whole-body imaging relates to passenger delays. There's the overall question: is this the correct tool to be finding next-generation threats? Clearly, we don't think that whole-body imaging is the correct tool for all categories of threats.

Two other items are also of concern to us as they impact the passengers.

The first is the passenger throughput through whole-body scanners. We believe it takes roughly 45 seconds—that may be a little too long, but it's something between 30 and 45 seconds—to scan each passenger. IATA has done studies that have unequivocally stated that from the curb to security screening, if you delay all passengers by 45 seconds, you can expect all flights to be delayed by between two and three hours. That is because, if you're the first passenger in line, you only have a 45-second delay, but if you're the 300th passenger in line, that delay ripples through. That's how we count the delays.

There's a second issue, which we haven't really seen discussed by anyone. If you install whole-body imaging, what effect does doing so have on the x-ray machines at the checkpoint? When you go through a whole-body imager, you have to take everything out of your pockets because anything you have in your pockets will obscure the image. All of that new material now has to go into the x-ray machines.

Has anyone thought about what is happening to the x-ray machines? Quite frankly, I think everyone's experience is that you're standing a long time in front of the x-ray machine waiting for people just to put the regular stuff through. Now you're going to have business cards, because you can't have business cards in your pocket; you can't have pencils in your pocket—all of that needs to go through now.

Hopefully I've answered your question, but those are our concerns about times and whole-body imaging.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are running out of time. Your industry has to reduce the waiting time as much as possible, otherwise, inevitably, it will no longer be competitive with other modes of transportation.

9:55 a.m.

Director, Security and Travel Facilitation (Global), International Air Transport Association

Kenneth Dunlap

You're absolutely correct. Since 9/11 we've seen a dramatic downturn in the number of passengers choosing air travel for flights that are 300 miles or less, because, quite frankly, you can probably drive there faster. We're very concerned about that.

This especially hits the smaller communities. If you have small communities that have limited air service and security becomes such a hassle, people choose to not fly to those communities, and then the investments you have in the airports in the small communities...I don't want to say they go to waste, but if no one's travelling there, why would you invest more into an airport?

We would like to see passengers have the option to quickly and conveniently go through security and travel on those short-haul segments and go to those smaller cities. That's one of our concerns.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Chowdhury, in your presentation, you said that the accident rate in Canada was higher than in the rest of the world.

Can you explain this? We are talking about approximately 9.5% to 11.3%. That is almost 2% higher. Can you explain this?

9:55 a.m.

Executive Committee Member, International Helicopter Safety Team

Somen Chowdhury

I will share my answer with Mr. Séguin.

I think the mission explains a lot. Given the geography of Canada and the type of role we play here, especially if we are talking about mining or forestry development. This is not a typical use.

There is another developed country where it is worse than in Canada, and that country is Australia. We tried to invite Australia to come to our group and talk: it was difficult. Australia uses small Robinson helicopters to hunt animals and to do all kinds of things, like cowboys—they also have a cowboy mentality. I talked about SMS; it's extremely difficult to implement: it's cultural. It is difficult in Australia. It's much better in Canada. We have an organization known as HAC. The others listen and we do studies together. We have not managed to do that with Australia. So you can address this. I hope that this situation will improve.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

Sylvain Séguin

I agree with Mr. Chowdhury. That is the kind of operation. In the Canadian North, we face challenges as a result of the geography and the demand for devices from the mining sector, which has grown considerably over the past few years. I believe that it will also be essential to look at the way the statistics are being interpreted.

In Canada, flying hours must be reported to Statistics Canada and Transport Canada, but this is not the case in a number of other countries, where hours are estimated.

I also believe that the accident reporting culture is much stronger. Today, most countries use the ICAO's definition of the word "accident". I believe that, for a number of years, our definition was slightly more restrictive, which perhaps led to a number of helicopters that were only damaged being classified under "accident". It's a mix of the two.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Bevington.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

In regard to the helicopters, I would just note that you said you based all of this on data. But when I saw the statistics you presented, I was confused by them, because you didn't assign to the statistics the weight of the increased traffic. You didn't do that. You kept that separate. So we really couldn't use the statistics you gave us to plot a trend line in safety. If you show only the accidents and you don't show the number of flights, the number of helicopters that are active, the data are not correct.

So you presented data to us here that didn't really show the situation that I would interpret when I look at the data you showed us about Canada having twice as many helicopters flying and the number of accidents remaining the same: I would say there has been an improvement in helicopter safety over the last 10 years. So your data is really quite misleading.

10 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

Sylvain Séguin

We may not have explained it correctly, but the slides with the goal and the reduction in accidents were based on 100,000 hours of flying. I have to apologize for that. Maybe we didn't specify that.

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

So they were per hour--

10 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

In one of the first slides you showed us, the total amount of accidents worldwide was 600 per year.

10 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

Sylvain Séguin

No, those were numbers, but then--

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Okay, so that--

10 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

Sylvain Séguin

Sorry, the data being used—

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

You didn't give us the number of total flights in the world by helicopters over that period of time.

10 a.m.

Co-Chair, Canadian Joint Helicopter Safety Analysis Team, International Helicopter Safety Team

Sylvain Séguin

Not in the first slide, but in the slide with the target.... We apologize. We should have specified that it's based on—

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

So in fact aviation safety in helicopters is improving? Could we say that over the...?

10 a.m.

Executive Committee Member, International Helicopter Safety Team

Somen Chowdhury

It is improving, but not at a rate--as I tried to emphasize, but perhaps not appropriately--that matches the rest of the industry. The rest of the aviation industry has seen a drastic reduction. I showed you a graph of that reduction.

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Now, to go to another issue, when you talked about that difference, you said there's a problem with training at the smaller operators. It's pretty clear that the larger operators are getting more training. The large operators flying larger helicopters are getting much more in-depth training. Is that correct? Is that the situation?

10 a.m.

Executive Committee Member, International Helicopter Safety Team

Somen Chowdhury

Yes, the big operators like CAC, Bristol, the worldwide big ones--

10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Flying large helicopters--

10 a.m.

Executive Committee Member, International Helicopter Safety Team

Somen Chowdhury

They have very structured systems in their organizations. They spend the money, the effort, and the time to do recurrent training, which is very critical, whereas the small operators owning five helicopters and less--and they constitute 85% of the North American fleet--are mom-and-pop shows.