Evidence of meeting #16 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Howard Bohan  Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council
Normand Boivin  Vice-President, Airport Operations, Aéroports de Montréal, Canadian Airports Council
Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Toby Lennox  Vice-President of Corporate Affairs and Communications, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council
Chantal Bernier  Assistant Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Carman Baggaley  Strategic Policy Advisor, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 16 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are a study of aviation safety and security.

Joining us today, we have, from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, Nathalie Des Rosiers, general counsel, and from the Canadian Airports Council, Toby Lennox, Howard Bohan, and Normand Boivin.

I'm sure you've been instructed as to the process. We do have a few members who will join us as we start, but I think in order to make time I'll ask you to start, please.

9:05 a.m.

Howard Bohan Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Howard Bohan. I'm vice-president of operations and customer experience for the Greater Toronto Airports Authority. I'm also here on behalf of the Canadian Airports Council. My colleagues are Toby Lennox, vice-president of corporate affairs and communications, and Normand Boivin, vice-president, airport operations and aviation development with Aéroports de Montréal.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to provide airports' perspective on aviation security. We also appreciate the time that the committee is taking to examine this critical issue. It is our view that an open dialogue on aviation security with key industry partners will help to produce an even more efficient and effective aviation security system. We will be pleased to answer any questions that the committee may have, both at this session and at any member's convenience.

The Canadian Airports Council was formed in 1992 as the federal government devolved control of airports to local private non-share corporations. Since that time, the CAC has evolved into the national representative for airports on a wide range of significant issues and concerns.

Canada's airports are engines for economic development in the communities they serve and are one of their most important elements of local infrastructure.

The CAC's membership represents more than 200 Canadian airports, including all of the national airports system airports and most passenger services in every province and territory.

Together, CAC members handle virtually all of the nation's cargo and international passenger traffic and 95% of the domestic passenger traffic. They create well in excess of $45 billion in economic activity in the communities they serve, and more than 200,000 jobs are directly associated with CAC member airports, generating a payroll of more than $8 billion annually.

Mr. Chairman, the airport community understands and supports the importance of aviation security. The safety and security of our passengers and air carriers is paramount. It is our first concern in operating the airports and informs everything we do. There is, in our view, a direct link between stable, dependable airport security and the health of the Canadian air transportation system.

It is very clear that attacks on aviation, even those not originating in or directed at Canada, have an impact on people's willingness to travel by air. Canada is a vast nation, where communities are linked to each other and to the wider world by our transportation system. Airports are mindful that the security of that transportation system is crucial to our economic and national well-being.

The thankfully failed attack of December 25 served as a serious reminder. We need to continually re-examine the current air security system to ensure that it adequately addresses risks and vulnerabilities, and that it is playing that foundational role in the economic success of Canada.

We therefore enthusiastically welcome the decision of this committee to conduct the current study and the decision of the Government of Canada to engage in a comprehensive national security review. It is entirely appropriate that we engage in this review, and we look forward to providing whatever assistance is necessary.

It is important to recognize that any discussion of aviation security should not simply examine and unpack what happened on December 25. Rather, the discussion should look forward to anticipate future threats in light of the significance of the economic importance of aviation security.

December 25 reminded us that the threat is very real, but also that we can no longer simply balance security with customer service. It is no longer a trade-off. The singular challenge we face is that we as an industry have to excel at both.

We must work together to find better, more efficient ways of identifying, assessing, and mitigating risk holistically, with a new appreciation for the impact on business and industry sustainability.

May 11th, 2010 / 9:05 a.m.

Normand Boivin Vice-President, Airport Operations, Aéroports de Montréal, Canadian Airports Council

In achieving this lofty goal, we ask that any review consider the vital role of the airport operators. They are the only ones who can connect all the dots through recognition of industry/business interdependencies and associated impacts of security-related interruptions.

Unlike particular agencies whose mandates are necessarily limited, it is only the airport operators who are able to see the entire airport as a system. As a result, we are able to identify and address the various challenges of implementing a fully integrated and holistic security system, which starts at the perimeter of the airport and goes through to the aircraft seat.

The events of December 25 placed a tremendous strain on the ability of the air transportation system to function. The implementation of measures in one area resulted in unintended consequences in another, simply because the airport operator was not able to coordinate the various activities. It is also critical that any review recognize the very real distinctions between the size and roles of the various airports in Canada. It is essential that airports be engaged, whether they are regional airports or gateway airports. The question is one of “scalability” and taking advantage of the opportunities that exist in each type of airport. Smaller airports simply do not have the complexities of the larger ones, but their smaller, more communal character can serve to enhance security in ways that are not possible at gateway airports such as Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.

Systems should be flexible enough to deliver security in a completely different manner, depending on a number of factors, including available resources and levels of risk. We recognize that it will not be easy, but we feel that the issue of “scalability” should be viewed as an opportunity, not a challenge.

If there is one impression that we would want to leave with the committee today, it is that airports recognize the importance of airport security, which is a top priority at all airports across the country. As well, as partners in the aviation industry, we must work together to create an integrated system that anticipates threats of the future and offer a customer experience that will ensure that people choose to fly.

Should there be an incident similar to the event of December 25 at one of our airports, we understand that the impact could be immediate and devastating. Clearly, we are motivated to make sure that such an event never happens again. Again, I stress on behalf of the Canadian Airports Council that the safety and security of our passengers and air carriers is paramount. We are committed to working with all stakeholders, including the federal government and our various security agencies, to ensure that the safety and security of Canada's aviation system is world-class.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Volpe.

Oh, I'm sorry, Madame Des Rosiers. Do you have a presentation as well?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

[Inaudible--Editor]...the fact that I showed up late. He's trying to draw attention to that.

My apologies.

9:10 a.m.

Nathalie Des Rosiers General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

I would like to thank you for having invited me. My name is Nathalie Des Rosiers, and I am here on behalf of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. The first part of my presentation will be in French, and the second in English.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is a non-profit organization that is recognized for its work on issues related to civil liberties in Canada. The organization was founded in 1964, and its expertise has been recognized both by the courts and House of Commons.

In our view, four security models are the subject of the current debate on airport security. The first, relatively new model is based on what I would call "profiling", which is an Israeli model that makes use of behavioural profiling techniques in order to subject certain types of people to more in-depth investigations. The profiling model imposes a greater burden on some passengers and less on others. We suppose that this type of regime gives preferential treatment to some in order to avoid long line-ups. This first model identifies certain passengers and places them in different security categories.

The second model is what I would call the "technological" security model, which relies on increasingly sophisticated detection techniques that apply to all passengers in order to ensure the highest level of security. The recent investment in body scanners, following the events of last December, would fall into this category.

The third model relies more on random testing, on the unpredictability of search methods and implementation, which may prevent potential terrorists from figuring out the system and getting around it.

The fourth model is more dependent on intelligence services in order to detect terrorist networks and prevent their members from entering airports and boarding planes. Our association is particularly concerned with Canada's passenger protection program. I will come back to that later.

My presentation will look at these four systems and outline what are the concerns of a civil libertarian with each one of them, and what are some of the recommendations that you should look at, whether you choose any one of them. We suspect that probably we'll be in a mode where there will be different visions that may be applied to different airports, but certainly these visions are not mutually exclusive. In any event, each system requires that civil liberty concerns be addressed.

On the pros and cons of the profiling model, the first model, I think many people are skeptical about the idea of adopting the Israeli model, pointing out that the level and types of threats differ between Canada and Israel. According to them, threats against the Israeli airports are more frequent, at a type of higher level, and focus on one particular political situation, whereas Canada may have a lower level of threat but certainly a more diffuse type of threat.

Extremists will vary, and I think I join my colleagues here in thinking that the designation of the airport security should be made not with one type of terrorist in mind, but in recognizing that our history has included also the Air India disaster and other internal political conflicts. I think we should be careful, as we design the model, to assume that the threat of terrorism is just like the ones affecting other countries and, more importantly, that it will remain the same.

With each new wave of immigration, one may imagine that new conflicts may transform themselves and radicalize conflicts leading to terrorism. My point is simply that we ought not to design the system with only September 11 or December 25 in mind.

There are many objections to profiling, behavioural or other. In the Israeli model that has been presented to us, it invites workers, after training, to go with their hunches a bit and to watch all travellers, to spot the people who would present traits of edginess, nervousness, and act on these hunches to interview and inspect more fully the travellers so identified.

In our view, this certainly has the potential for engaging in racial profiling of the worst kind and engaging many false positives. This proposal has the potential of disrupting always the same kinds of people: the young Arabic-looking man or the people with a fear of flying or people with mental illness, the people who display some awkwardness in airports.

Profiling by country, which is another aspect that comes out in this, is equally as reprehensible, if not more. The image of a young Canadian soccer team arriving at the airport and being split into whether people are indeed born in Canada or born elsewhere is unacceptable, I think, in our imagery. It is indeed also against common sense, I think, to fail to recognize that we need community engagement to identify potential terrorists and not to marginalize them. So profiling by country of origin and country of destination seems to be counterproductive.

In our view, other preferable alternatives exist. I will get to them in a minute. But if you are going to consider profiling in any way, we urge you to do the following.

The model must be vetted by the Canadian Human Rights Commission. It must ensure against the possibility that racial profiling will be done. It must be constantly evaluated for its impact on travellers, particularly with respect to race, age, and religion.

It must provide--and I will come back to this a couple of times in my presentation--for some compensation for the travellers who, because of having been wrongly identified, suffer inconvenience or miss their flights or suffer other serious inconveniences. In my view, we have to start thinking that this is like a vaccination. If we're going to display a model where some people will be identified for the benefit of all, then we should ensure that they are compensated and that they don't have to spend years of fighting to get some recognition for what they have suffered.

The profiling model is also applied in the positive sense, with the possibility of safe travellers having special passes to forego all screening or to minimize screening. Again, this may be worrisome, I assume, because we would expect that savvy future terrorists may be able to acquire the special passes.

Just to summarize, our concern on the profiling regime being put forward is that it may lead to racial profiling, whether they admit it or not, and it should be evaluated clearly on that basis. We should not skirt our responsibility to look at that.

The technological model applies universally and does not have the potential drawbacks that I just explained. However, it raises three types of issues.

First, as we've discussed several times, are the privacy concerns and the risks of what I would describe as malfunction and malfeasance.

Any time you have a technology, there is the risk that it will not function properly. Therefore, with the body scanners, the concern that the CCLA has expressed several times is that even if the images are supposed to disappear quickly, there is indeed a risk that they will be circulated.

There's also the risk of malfeasance. Someone watching famous people—some of you may be coming to the airport—might take the image and make some money from it.

There is a risk for privacy when we invest in technology, particularly when it's a technology that is more and more invasive.

I think there is a great sense that there are false positives; the last time I appeared, we mentioned the Kelowna experience. When we looked at the Kelowna report, in our view it showed a really high degree of false positives. It could be with training that this will decrease. It was 68% for false positives, according to the report. It seemed to us that this was a pretty high level. Now, maybe with training, this will be reduced. Nevertheless, false positives, again, are not an efficient way of doing security. This may also lead to a false sense of comfort in the travelling public.

In a way, it's an expensive system, because there's no end in sight. There's an exponential growth of security apparatus that could be invented. At some point, I think, we have to arrive at the point where we decide whether the marginal costs are sufficient to warrant it, both the cost to privacy and the cost to the travelling public.

I think if you are going to go this way and continue to recommend further involvement and investment in privacy-invasive technology, it is important that the privacy commissioners continue to be involved and that the safeguards to protect privacy continue to be in place. In our experience with body scanners in other airports outside of Canada, after a number of years the possibility of choice is no longer there. It becomes a matter of routine and the initial safeguards are forgotten. So if you're going to go this way, make sure they continue to be evaluated.

I have one minute left. On the third model, randomness, in our view, we think that constantly varying the randomness of the testing may defuse terrorist action and so on.

I want to finish on the pros and cons of the intelligence model and simply refer you to our previous submissions on passenger protection problems. I urge you to adopt a legislative framework for this. In our view, the passenger protection program as it now exists is unconstitutional. It is a violation of the right to mobility and liberty and it is not prescribed by law. It is not prescribed by a statute.

I think it is the responsibility of Parliament to enact a passenger program, and if they decide to do so, it must be a no-fly list that is bound by the rule of law and does provide for some procedural safeguards. Indeed, we now have some experience in designing programs where you need to have special advocates. Certainly, again, my plea would be that it is important that this not be left simply as an administrative program, but that it be scrutinized by Parliament and established through this.

Merci beaucoup.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Volpe.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Ms. Des Rosiers, just like the last time you gave a presentation before the committee and its members, your remarks today were impressive. Thank you.

Gentlemen, thank you very much as well.

I wonder if I could start with you first, Mr. Bohan, because one of the reasons why I was late is that I had occasion to travel by Pearson this morning. I think, because I'm a cynic, I guess, there might have been some correlation between the lineup that stretched about 600 metres down the airport to get through security and your presence here this morning.

9:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Howard Bohan

I didn't set that up.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Did you let CATSA know you were coming by here?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Howard Bohan

No, no, I--

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I wondered who's putting pressure on the government for additional funding, whether it was the airport authorities or CATSA, because there didn't seem to be any reason. I didn't see any terrorist alert, there were no criminals coming by--

9:25 a.m.

A voice

Politicians.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Well, the guys from Fort McMurray had already passed.

So I just wondered whether there was some connection. I say this half in jest, because your presentation, as did Monsieur Boivin's presentation, talks about a partnership, an economic partnership between a vibrant creator of wealth and the airline industry and the security business.

I said security business; I didn't talk about anything else, okay? I just don't want you to get confused about where I'm coming from.

So if the security business succeeded in getting the Government of Canada--there they are, right there--to invest or make a promise of investing another $1.5 billion, but then levelled on your clientele a $3.5 billion tax to make that investment.... What was all that lineup about? I can't imagine anybody going through there this morning thinking that they'd want to go through that experience again.

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Howard Bohan

That's a great question. If I had an easy answer to the dynamics of the queueing at busy airports, I'd probably be a lot richer than I am now, but I think that--

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

You're looking for a partner? I'm not allowed to lobby, but if you're looking for a partner, I'll resign.

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President of Operations and Customer Experience, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Canadian Airports Council

Howard Bohan

This speaks to the point that Mr. Boivin spoke about earlier and that I tried to speak about: how the dynamic of the airport is so complex.

As an example, when CATSA responds to events in one part of the terminal building, they may pull resources from that area to deal with an earlier peak in transborder, let's say. So the resources they planned to use in the domestic pre-board screening area to handle your flight are actually being deployed in transborder because of a surge of traffic that may have resulted--I'll use an example--in a shortage of staffing for Air Canada or the USCBP. You then get the surge happening within the sequential processes, and CATSA may not have anticipated that.

I'm not trying to make an excuse for CATSA. I'm just saying that the airports are complex places, and the only people who really have a complete view of that are the airports themselves, because we look at it all. CATSA looks at one piece and USCBP looks at another. The airlines look at another.

I don't know if that answers your question.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It does, but unfortunately I've heard it before, Mr. Bohan. I guess I'm expressing the same frustration that everybody who recognized me this morning wanted to burden me with. I told them I was coming to a committee, and here you are, so I wanted to discharge some of my responsibility.

I don't think the public is convinced, and neither am I, because you're talking about a management paradigm that surely has to be improved. I know that you don't have the responsibility and neither do any of your client airports. But CATSA starts at the screen; it doesn't go beyond the airport boundaries. So there's something in the management structure that's a problem.

I only have another minute, but if you'll allow me, I'd like to go to Madame Des Rosiers, because what you said really has something to do with what she said earlier on, and that is that some of these surges--to use your word--can be prompted by people who have ambitions for resolving a problem elsewhere.

A few weeks ago, we heard about the Khalistani movement in Canada actually threatening some members of Parliament. One can imagine that if there is a serious approach by CATSA, there might have been a surge on issues, especially with planes taking off and going elsewhere.

A similar situation happened not that long ago, in 2006, when CSIS, the RCMP, and government officials examined some 14,000 people who were leaving the war zone of southern Lebanon. There were only 11,000 registered, but 4,000 non-registered permanent residents or non-Canadian citizens found themselves on planes and boats coming back to Canada. Now, I think a logical person would ask if 3,000 people weren't registered, what kind of pre-screening happened to integrate those individuals into a Canadian environment knowing that might exacerbate a problem elsewhere?

I don't know, Madame Des Rosiers. I know what the government is going to say all the time: that you make a great case, but security trumps human rights, privacy rights, and any system you want to put in place. That's what they'll say.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

[Inaudible--Editor]...no Khalistani had threatened air traffic or air security in Canada as far as I know, and I'm sure the honourable member will agree.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'll ask you to be very brief.

9:30 a.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

Nathalie Des Rosiers

Well, simply, it's not the right calculation to think that it's a zero-sum game, that if you increase security you decrease human rights, and that's okay. I think you need the enhancement. That's how I was going to finish. And I'll just read my last sentence for you, which is that a strong commitment to fairness and to treating people with human rights is what it's all about to ensure security.

It's part of the message of a democracy that there are things you cannot do and you should not do, because you've lost already if you are engaging in decreasing human rights to the nth degree. There are levels that you cannot reach, and in our view, I think you need to have these concerns present all the time.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Monsieur Laframboise.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

My first question will be for the representatives of the Canadian Airports Council. You seemed rather uneasy with regard to... I would like to quote what you said on page 3 of your document, concerning the events of December 25: "The implementation of measures in one area resulted in unintended consequences in another, simply because the airport operator was not able to coordinate the various activities." Do you mean that CATSA, the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, did not do its work?

9:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Airport Operations, Aéroports de Montréal, Canadian Airports Council

Normand Boivin

I do not think that CATSA did not do its work. I think that the implementation of measures with almost no advance notice did not enable a proper coordination, a proper set of instructions to be given, in order to use the best methods to achieve the objectives given to us by the Government of Canada.

Despite the fact that there are five or six different agencies that deal with security, each one thought it had the right plan and applied the imposed measures within a few hours. The lack of coordination and exchanges on the objectives to meet within a single organization, a single airport, is what led to the circumstances experienced on December 26. Note that, as of December 26, airports held meetings in order to alleviate the situation as much as possible. You will remember that the five- to six-hour line-ups at U.S. Customs in Toronto and Montreal were reduced to about one hour in under three days. Once we have coordination, once information is gathered to enable all parties to meet their stated objectives, we achieve better results.