Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilles Vaillancourt  Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure, and Communities, meeting 23.

The orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2): a study of the impact of the government's deadline of March 31, 2011, for infrastructure stimulus projects, and December 31, 2010, for the completion of projects under the recreational infrastructure Canada program, or RinC, and the water and waste-water pipeline renewal program, PRECO.

Joining us today from the Union of Quebec Municipalities are Gilles Vaillancourt, who is a member of the executive committee, president of the commission on fiscality and local finances, and mayor of the City of Laval; and Joël Bélanger, who is a policy adviser.

Welcome to our committee.

Mr. Bevington, on a point of order.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Before we get into the welcoming of the witnesses, regarding the motion that I brought forward the other day that failed, I wonder if the committee would permit me to bring that subject forward to the steering committee at the next opportunity so I can lay it out a little better for the members. Perhaps it needed a bit more explanation to bring that forward in a good fashion, and also bring forward the work that the natural resources committee is doing on this.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Volpe.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chairman, I note that we had started to have some reasonable discussion about this. It is a very urgent issue, it's imminent, and it's current. While I had some reservations, given the timetable that's unfolding very quickly before us, I thought at the very least we ought to be able to refer it over to the steering committee and establish a timeline for discussing it.

As I indicated the other day, it is very topical. The Minister of Transport, if he doesn't have the line responsibility, at the very least is implicated in all the decisions in establishing a plan. I think the committee would be remiss if it weren't seized of the importance of the matter, especially with respect to its environmental implications and its financial implications, which obviously will have a large impact on the economy, not only locally, but as we've seen from further down south, not only hemispherically but globally.

So I commend Mr. Bevington for bringing the issue back up again, and my apologies to our witnesses, who came here to speak about something else, but I think the motion should at least be entertained in steering committee. Obviously we can't do it today, so I'd support it going to steering committee.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Monsieur Laframboise.

9:05 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

I have no objection to this being discussed at the steering committee, but I ask that we please not reopen that debate today.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Merci.

Mr. Jean.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

First of all, I'd like to welcome Mr. Kennedy back here, twice in ten meetings, and twice in a row. It's nice. Thanks for gracing us with your presence again.

I think it would be most appropriate to deal with this in the steering committee if Mr. Bevington has more facts, but since the committee as a whole voted on it recently, I don't think any decisions should be made at steering committee without the blessing of the committee as a whole. But certainly if he has new facts, I think that's appropriate.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I believe the subcommittee will address it and then bring it forward to the committee as a whole at that point.

Let's go back to where we were.

Oh, I'm sorry. Ms. Crombie, on a point of order.

June 10th, 2010 / 9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have met with the Great Lakes Pilotage Authority on an issue that has come to light that I wonder if we may put before our committee, or perhaps at least entertain at steering committee. Perhaps Mr. Laframboise may have some concerns as well.

The Marine Pilots' Association is concerned about proposed amendments to their regulations that may take away the Great Lakes Pilotage Authority's ability to issue the certificates for pilots. There's some great concern that this may actually go to the shipowners themselves. It's a matter of great concern to them.

I wonder whether there is anyone else who is concerned, perhaps on the Quebec side—the Bloc Québécois may be concerned about this issue as well—and whether it's something we may entertain at steering committee, perhaps to bring forward to this committee to study.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Are there comments?

Mr. Volpe.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I guess I would see whether the parliamentary secretary would respond to this. I think it's a very important issue as well.

Since it appears the transport ministry may in fact issue notices of regulations in the Canada Gazette, it would be appropriate for this committee to bring transport officials before it in order to go through with them what the intentions of those regulations would be so we could be proactive in this matter.

That's inasmuch as the Marine Pilots' Association is an integral part of the workings of the Great Lakes and seaway system, and of course obviously going over into the Atlantic. We could talk about the marine pilots on the Pacific coast as well, but the most immediate one is for the continental gateway that's represented by the St. Lawrence Seaway.

So if the parliamentary secretary would address Ms. Crombie's point of order, maybe we could talk about having the members of the department here, or if not, the minister, to address the issues of the impending regulations coming forward.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Jean.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Yes, Mr. Chair, and thank you.

First I'd like to say that I haven't been familiar with this issue in about a year. So it's the first time this morning that it's been brought up. Certainly I understand there are about 350 pilots across Canada, who each make approximately $200,000 to $250,000. These new regulations may impact them, I'm not certain, but I would ask the committee's indulgence in this particular case. Maybe Mrs. Crombie could talk to me afterwards, and I could find out the information from the department. And it might avoid the conclusion where we would have to spend time before the end of the session on something that, quite frankly, deals with 350 people compared with the 32 million people we're dealing with in this particular issue today.

So not to underscore the value of it, but I don't know what's.... Usually we talk about this outside of the committee, and we don't have to raise points of order. I'm more than happy to talk about it with her and arrange a briefing for her and for you, Mr. Volpe, or Monsieur Laframboise. But it's the first I've heard of it. So I don't want to commit the time of this committee and the valuable time of the committee members on something at this stage that really.... I don't know what Mrs. Crombie is referring to.

Not only that, we have the mayor of Laval here. They're gracing us with their presence at the last moment. I'd really like to hear from him and from those he represents. So I would like to move forward with that if I could. And if Ms. Crombie wants to talk to me about it afterwards, outside of their precious time being wasted, I'd be more than happy to do so.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Bevington.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

I would like to see it go to the steering committee as well.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

I don't think we have to have a vote on it. We'll have outside discussion. It can be brought to the steering committee, for sure.

Thank you again. We appreciate your time being here. I understand you know that you're going to make roughly a ten-minute presentation and we'll then move to questions and answers. Thank you for being here.

Please proceed.

9:10 a.m.

Gilles Vaillancourt Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Chair of the committee Tweed, Vice-Chairs Laframboise and Volpe, ladies and gentlemen members of the committee, the Union des municipalités du Québec eagerly accepted your invitation to take part in the committee's work regarding the impact of the March 31, 2011 deadline set by the government for the completion of infrastructure stimulus projects. This is an issue for all municipalities in Quebec, and particularly for members of the Union of Quebec Municipalities.

The UMQ represents municipalities of all sizes in every region of Quebec. Its mandate is to promote the fundamental role of municipalities in enhancing social and economic progress across the province, and to support its members in building democratic, innovative and competitive living environments. More than 5 million Quebeckers are represented by the UMQ.

For Quebec municipalities, the pressures caused by the deadline have been made worse as a result of several factors, including the lengthy negotiations between the federal and provincial governments, which meant that measures were really only put in place several months after the announcement. This had the effect of slowing down municipal processes which must go forward before any work can begin.

In addition, municipal elections held in November of 2009 all across Quebec also slowed the pace at which projects got underway. Almost 50% of city and town halls saw changes to their elected officials, something which had a major impact.

Finally, Quebec municipalities have to deal with harsh winters, which means that there is no construction work being done between the end of November and the end of March under the Water and Wastewater Pipeline Renewal Program, or PRECO.

Taken together, these factors have resulted in increased pressures on Quebec municipalities as a result of schedules being shortened. Despite that, the municipalities have acted quickly and diligently to respond to requests from governments.

As we were frequently reminded by ministers of both the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec, without quick action by municipalities to get major infrastructure projects underway, the effects of the economic crisis would have been far worse. We hope this partnership will continue.

Municipalities are currently doing everything possible to meet the tight deadline that has been imposed, which means important concessions on their part.

The City of Laval, for example, has stepped up the pace of its work to renew water and wastewater pipelines. In 2010, we are planning to carry out all the work approved under the PRECO, which represents an investment of almost $45 million. However, factors beyond our control may result in part of the work not being completed on time.

Furthermore, engineering principles recommend that paving work be done in two stages, with a period of freezing/unfreezing between the first and second layers, in order to ensure a longer life. This standard cannot be followed if the deadline of December 31, 2010 is to be met.

However, the City of Laval is certainly not the only city to be facing these challenges and the work done by municipalities across Quebec is worthy of mention. That is the case for Sainte-Marie, Beauce, which has been commended for its efforts by elected members from the region, both federal and provincial.

In that specific case, the municipality only has 12 months to carry out work that would normally take almost twice as long. Despite the fact that it will not be able to meet the March 31, 2011 deadline, Sainte-Marie began work last March on the construction of a sports and multi-purpose complex at a cost of $28 million. It is doing so in order to meet the pressing needs of its residents.

Moreover, in spite of the diligence they have demonstrated, municipalities have to contend with an administrative process that always extends over many months. For example, for a relatively simple project submitted on January 29, 2010, the deadline for committing projects under the stimulus measures, the municipal process will result in the work only beginning five or six months later, around the month of July or August, depending on contingencies.

First of all, at the same time that it proposes a project, the municipality moves forward with approval of its borrowing by-law, which takes approximately three months. In the meantime, the municipality will have received approval for the project from the Ministère des Affaires municipales, des Régions et de l'Occupation du territoire.

This year, because of the large number of projects that came forward in January of 2010, most municipalities only received their memorandum of understanding in March, almost two months after submitting their project. Very often, it is only once that confirmation has been received that a municipality will begin preparing plans and estimates, something that may take two to three months, which brings us to the month of April. Once the plans have been completed and the borrowing by-law has been authorized, the municipality issues a call for tenders and examines the bids approximately one month later, in June.

Based on this accelerated process, and assuming that the bids come in within the budget set by the municipality, it will only be possible to begin work in July, at the earliest. In the specific case of street infrastructure work funded through the PRECO, the deadline for the completion of work is December 31, 2010. Because the month of December is automatically out of the question because of the weather, that leaves only four or five months for the municipality to carry out its programming, whatever the magnitude of its projects.

This process, which is critical for proper municipal management, demonstrates the extent to which this deadline is simply unrealistic in a great many cases. It may result in higher construction costs than the municipalities will ultimately be in a position to absorb on their own. As was recently mentioned by Mr. Dany Lachance, President of the Quebec Municipal Engineers Association, imposing time constraints on a contractor generally results in higher costs. Without a deadline, no such constraint exists.

The Municipality of Matane experienced this with respect to its project to upgrade the local arena when it had to shorten the work schedule from 16 to 10 months in order to meet the deadline. The compressed timeline resulted in increased project costs of approximately $1.7 million which it absorbed on its own, by passing a second borrowing by-law.

The other issue that the Union des municipalités du Québec would like to draw attention to today is the fact that many municipalities which have already begun this work may not be able to meet the March 31, 2011 deadline. That would mean they would be forced to incur 100% of the costs of all work completed after the deadline. I'm sure you will agree with me that this is contrary to the spirit of the partnership between governments and municipalities. This is a situation that several municipalities will face.

I would like to give you another example, because an example is worth a thousand words. The City of Saint-Hyacinthe has just begun construction work on a recreational/tourist complex. Initially, in 2006, this was expected to cost $24 million. Since then, the City has lowered the cost to $16 million, with a view to meeting the deadline. It went even further, by dividing the project into separate work packages in order to speed things up. According to estimates on March 21, 2011, only about 60% of the work is likely to have been completed, leaving the Municipality of Saint-Hyacinthe with a bill of about $4 million that it will have to pay on its own.

The examples I have given of projects that are already underway through the stimulus funding are not the rule, however, because several municipalities are not able to run the risk of having to take on such a heavy financial burden. That is the case for the Municipality of La Pocatière, which has a population of less than 5,000. Faced with the possibility of not being able to complete the work in time, it decided to abandon a $600,000 project under the PRECO to upgrade its water and wastewater pipelines, and believe me, it is in dire need of that work. Yet the project was approved by both levels of government. The municipality has assured us, however, that were the federal government to show some flexibility regarding the deadline for completing the work, it would roll up its sleeves and get the work done, because it is very important that the project be completed.

Although the March 31, 2011 deadline seems far away, municipalities are now having to make decisions, and it is now that they are in need of greater flexibility on the part of the federal government. All across Quebec, there are examples like the Municipality of La Pocatière. That illustrates the fact that, despite the monies earmarked for these economic measures having been committed—more than $1 billion for Quebec—many projects will not go ahead, meaning that much of the stimulus money will remain unused.

In summary, the UMQ would like to remind members that factors such as the slow negotiations between Ottawa and Quebec, the provincial elections, and weather are totally beyond the control of municipalities. And yet, in the context of infrastructure stimulus projects, they are nonetheless suffering the consequences, as an unrealistic deadline is being imposed.

Municipalities which are unable to change or even cancel large-scale projects that improve residents' quality of life will therefore have to take full responsibility for all costs incurred after the deadline. That is contrary to the spirit of a partnership between governments and municipalities.

In closing, the UMQ is asking the federal government to demonstrate some flexibility in this regard and allow municipalities which have already begun construction work to complete it after the December 31, 2010 or December 31, 2011 deadlines, so as to fully benefit from the federal government's financial contribution.

Thank you for your attention. I am now ready to take your questions.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Merci, Monsieur Vaillancourt.

Mr. Volpe.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome Mr. Vaillancourt and Mr. Bélanger. Please accept our apologies for delaying your presentation.

To begin with, I would like to establish a few principles. My role is not to defend the government. I very much appreciate the fact that you presented your position with diplomacy and elegance. However, for the benefit of Canadians all across the country, it is important there be a clear understanding of the rules or parameters for this program.

So, I would like to ask a question that may seem a little delicate. Did all the municipalities submit projects to take advantage of an opportunity or to meet a specific need?

9:25 a.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

Municipalities never propose projects just to take advantage of opportunities, but they certainly do to meet pressing and glaring needs among their residents. That is the case for all the projects I have seen. None of them could be considered hare-brained; all are essential projects that will upgrade the current infrastructure and, in some cases, develop infrastructure that does not currently exist, which is needed and that the municipality might not have been in a position to build with its own financial resources.

Those are the two most frequent cases.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Let's go over the facts again. The municipalities came to government in order to meet specific needs. This is critical work. The two governments, provincial and federal, were fully aware at the time of the need for these projects to go forward, as well as the problem with the deadline.

9:25 a.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

You say both governments were well aware of the deadline. I have never had the privilege of sitting in government in Ottawa or in Quebec, but I have had the privilege of working with both governments. I don't know whether it is accurate to say that governments are aware of all the issues.

I think it is important to point out that, if governments had not had the municipalities and if the municipalities had not made governments aware of their needs, you probably would not have found any projects to undertake, even with your own money. Even if you had set yourself up on a street corner with your own money, you probably would not have found any takers. You need the municipalities. The municipalities are the most critical level of government ever created by man. Indeed, it is that level of government that allows the other two to carry out their social or economic mandate. It is unthinkable that a hospital could be built in a field if there are no roads leading to it and no watermains and sewers to service it. The same applies to housing for the people who work in industry or in business.

Without the municipalities, your program would not have worked. There are some realities that you did not factor in when developing your timetable. The time it took for discussions between the federal and the various provincial governments, and particularly the Government of Quebec, cannot be attributed to us or subtracted from the time we need to complete the work.

The fact that elections would be held in Quebec in 2009 was known in advance. However, there were changes at the elected official level in more than 50% of municipalities. They began asking their own questions about the programs. And, it is natural for a new team to look at what the previous team has done and question whether or not it is the right decision. The majority of projects are going ahead, but that did created time-related issues.

With respect to the engineering work, in Quebec, asphalting generally stops in late October. If you do it all at once, laying a single coat, you are contravening the proper practices recommended by engineers. That means that it has to be completed before the end of October, thereby jeopardizing the quality of the work.

It is critical that the money be used as effectively as possible. But not using the money effectively does not mean that you just keep telling people that they knew there was a deadline. Of course, people did know, as you have stated I don't know how many times. However, did you know it would be difficult to meet that deadline? That is what I am trying to explain.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Vaillancourt, no one here would question the importance of the municipalities and the role they play in projects of this kind. We all agree with you; they are indispensable.

I would like to ask you the same question again, but from a different perspective. Do provincial authorities agree with your position?

9:30 a.m.

Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities

Gilles Vaillancourt

I have yet to meet an elected member or minister who has contradicted us on this. They asked us to make our case in Ottawa. That's why we're here this morning, to talk with our federal government, which we respect.