Evidence of meeting #42 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Martin Eley  Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
John Crichton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Head Office, NAV CANADA
Brigita Gravitis-Beck  Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport
John Thachet  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

Health Canada representatives take part in our national discussions when we consider changes at Dorval, for example. They take part in that discussion to assess the impact of changes.

However, it is not up to us to ask Health Canada that.

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Who is it up to to do that? Who has to request that?

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

It's an issue for Health Canada, I believe.

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Who has to put the question to Health Canada?

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

It isn't me.

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

It isn't Transport Canada.

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

We've seen that the management of complaints concerning ADM is done by ADM. You agree that we can reasonably have questions in our minds when an organization receives complaints concerning it and manages them itself.

On the other hand, citizens were saying that ADM didn't listen to them, that they were not being treated appropriately. That may be true or false. However, from what I've seen, it's the treatment of the complaints that raised questions.

Don't you think that complaints to ADM should be managed by an independent agency? If so, which one?

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

This responsibility for ADM's airports belongs to it. ADM agrees with our processes. We believe this is more ADM's responsibility to the community since it agrees with all our processes and control measures.

A lot of parties are involved. We have responsibilities. In our view, ADM is meeting all its responsibilities.

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I'm going to hand over to my colleague.

December 7th, 2010 / 7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you.

Since I'm only allotted three and a half minutes to speak to you, I'll be going quickly. I'll outline all my problems to you, and then you'll take the time you need to answer.

First, I'm very critical of the noise abatement regulations. They require a consensus in our region because they give every one of the major players a veto: the flight schools, the city, DASH-L and the citizens' committees. Now there are two committees, one in Saint-Bruno and the other in Saint-Hubert. That's my constituency, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert.

These groups have to agree, and that's very difficult. I believe the Department of Transport should get more involved and play more of a leadership role in this situation that we are experiencing in Saint-Hubert.

I would like to tell you about three solutions that I want to submit to the Department of Transport.

First, I note the urgent need to expedite the accreditation process for changing parts, such as less noisy rotors and mufflers. These parts are extremely expensive and the process takes a lot of time. It should absolutely be expedited in order to provide financial support to the airlines wishing to make those changes because it's very costly.

Second, approvals for more recent aircraft that produce less sound and environmental pollution should be accelerated. This is also an urgent matter. With regard to more recent aircraft, I'm thinking of Cessnas.

Third, I would like to know whether the Department of Transport has studied the various issues of airports in European urban areas and the solutions they have found and implemented. If so, I would like to have a copy of it.

Lastly, in the Library of Parliament document that was submitted to us, we're told that a noise management plan by the airport authority will eventually be approved by the Department of Transport. In short, it appears that there has been a noise management plan from DASH-L. Could I get a copy of it?

7:20 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

There are a lot of points there. First, I'm going to focus on the second point.

As regards aircraft, we are complying with ICAO's global regulations. The standards requested for all aircraft are consistent with ICAO's requests. ICAO's requirements will change, but we will comply with them. Getting equipment that meets standards is still a problem. That will change over time, but for the moment all aircraft in Canada meet ICAO requirements. There are certain exceptions in the north, but the aircraft that fly commercial routes in the south comply with ICAO requirements.

As regards the process, I understand the urgency. It's our responsibility to enforce existing rules. Departure profiles, for example, are established by the airport, approved by us and published by NAV Canada.

However, if there are any complaints, it is our role to determine whether there has been a violation and to act accordingly at that time. We have no other initiatives to change the process for the moment. We are here to enforce the rules established and published by NAV Canada.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Ms. Chow.

7:25 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I also have three questions. I'm going to ask them all, and you can feel free to answer them.

I'm going to switch to downtown Toronto. We have an island airport. It's a regular source of complaints to my office. With the expansion that's going on these days, these complaints are getting louder and more frantic, to the point where some people are moving out of the Bathurst Quay neighbourhood. So really, what is Transport Canada proposing to address those legitimate complaints? What additional limits should be placed upon airports, such as the island airport, that operate in such close proximity to huge numbers of residential and recreational areas?

I also note that all airports are supposed to have noise abatement procedures as a term of their leases, but in this case, the downtown Toronto Island Airport has no such requirement as there is no lease. I note from other questions that there seems to be no effective community input into policy development for noise abatement regulations. So the question is, what measures will Transport Canada take to obtain effective input into noise abatement policies for neighbourhoods and communities affected, and not just from the airports or the airlines?

My last area of questioning follows from my colleague's question. I notice that the European Union, through the World Health Organization, has adopted a charter on transports. It includes targets to reduce noise. They have guidelines, they talk about decreasing the noise pollution, and they have nighttime sound levels in residential areas within WHO-recommended nighttime values. The European Union also published its noise directive in 2002 requiring member states to draw up noise maps, an action plan. It's just very extensive, whereas in Canada, the Transport Canada website hardly has anything. What kind of active role do you want to take to address airport noise, especially in big urban centres?

7:25 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

During the opening remarks, when we started the discussion, I think I explained that one of the challenges in an airport is to consider many differing aspects--there's a neighbourhood, people want to fly, they want airports to be convenient. Certainly the success of Toronto Island Airport is because of its location close to the centre of town. So understanding that there's an impact on the people in the local community, there are a lot of different vested interests. That's why we would require the consultation approach, involving all stakeholders, certainly for the national airport system's airports. The national airport system across the country is intended to address exactly that, to come up with the best solutions that meet everybody's needs.

I'm not sure if that particular requirement is part of Toronto Island's requirement or not. It is different. The same issues do exist, obviously, at a community level--there are people who want to use the airport; they want the convenience. I also understand that that particular airport has some very specific limits on the types of aircraft that can operate there. We know that Porter Airlines is operating some of the quietest prop aircraft that we have. So there are special circumstances there, I understand, but there are also some special considerations. In the development of Toronto Island Airport I believe they've gone some way to address that. So you are correct. I don't believe it is part of their lease.

With respect to the EU, I think we've seen a number of areas that the European Union is quite aggressive on--some areas environmentally, not just noise. Although it's always of interest to see what they're doing, we have to make sure we look at that in a Canadian context. That particular piece is really a policy piece, which is not my area of responsibility in terms of where we're going as a country. My specific responsibility is the safety aspect, and that does include the day-to-day noise operation, but noise policy on a more general level is not part of my responsibility.

7:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

So you're saying that Transport Canada really would not be able to play any role in making sure that the noise bylaws or noise abatement policies would be enforced, that it's completely up to the airport, it's completely up to Porter Airlines. For the local residents--there are 20,000 within walking distance, and actually there are more than that—tough for them; it's too bad, because they have an airport and there's nothing Transport Canada can do. That's what I'm hearing.

7:30 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

When there are published noise abatement procedures for any airport, the enforcement of those is our responsibility.

7:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

So because there are no published noise abatement procedures.... I thought that ultimately the minister and the ministry have the power to enact regulations affecting noise from aircraft and airports. You do have the power. The question is, why won't the ministry use that power to make the lives of tens of thousands of residents a bit easier, so that they can sleep better?

7:30 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

The regulations for the aircraft are in place, and the regulations adopt very directly the ICAO standards. So at an aircraft level we have very specific regulations. Aircraft don't operate in Canada unless they meet those regulations, with very few minor exceptions, and those are unusual circumstances. Aircraft do not get to operate unless they meet the noise standards.

7:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

What about frequency of the flights? If there are so many flights, there's just non-stop noise early in the morning and late at night. Could you not establish some kind of curfew or frequency, so that if you measure through the entire day there would be a limit of noise, so that it could be contained to a certain level? Do you not have the power to do so?

7:30 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

Wherever we have noise abatement procedures, they include time-of-day use. Many airports have curfews, and they would also be enforced, if they're abused. There are exceptions for emergency circumstances, for example, and things like that.

7:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

But at this airport you can't or you won't.

You do have the power to have a noise abatement policy, don't you?

7:30 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

It's a complicated story, but when we require it, it's basically as part of their lease. As part of operating the airport, they're required to consult. So it depends on which airport it is. Wherever the requirements exist, it's part of their responsibility to operate that airport. When an airport has been totally privatized, that is not the case.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

I'm going to invite our guests from the Department of Transport to join us now. At the last meeting, we had them both present, and I think they should be at the table as well, in case there are other questions for them.

Mr. Mayes.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you to the witnesses for being here this evening.

There are obviously standards in the operations of airports in other countries. I lived on the flight path at Narita airport for awhile. There were 52 million passengers coming through that airport every year, so there were a number of airplanes.

How do the regulations that we have in Canada stack up against those at some of the international airports in other countries?