Transport Committee on May 3rd, 2012

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You piqued my curiosity when you were talking about biofuels. We know this technology can have a huge impact on agriculture and global supply, as compared with oil and synthetic fuels.

Is progress being made in synthetic fuels?

[Rénald Fortier]

I am no expert, but I do know that there is a lot going in that field, although not necessarily in Canada.

In terms of biofuel research, I believe Nova Scotia is doing work on algae, in partnership with the National Research Council of Canada.

With respect to land biofuels, the Camelina sativa and Brassica carinata plants have been used to produce a biofuel that Porter used for a Dash 8 flight. The mixture was a blend of 49% of the first plant biofuel, 1% of the second plant biofuel and 50% regular gas. Research is being done in that area, because these plants can be grown here. The goal is to engineer varieties that can grow in the Canadian climate, similar to what has already been done with wheat varieties. The idea is to come up with plant varieties that could stand up to the climate and parasites and that could be grown on land not currently being used for food production.

Keep in mind that producing biofuels must not mean that you are taking food away from people or cattle. The objective is to produce varieties that could be grown on land that does not serve those purposes. The same goes for algae, which does not require land. It is renewable and efficient. Research in that area is happening in Canada.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Where do synthetic fuels stand?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I have to stop you there and go to Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Adler just had one thing he wanted to say first, and I will share my time with him.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I just want a quick question, Mr. Fortier. I'm very concerned about a statement that Mr. Sullivan made earlier that the free trade agreements Canada has with other countries are going to lead to the dissolution and gutting of Bombardier in the riding of York Centre and the loss of 4,000 direct and 9,000 indirect jobs.

As a former union boss, Mr. Sullivan, I'm really shocked that you would even say that. You're having such blatant disregard for workers.

Could you please comment on that statement, Mr. Fortier, that Bombardier, because of free trade, is at risk of shutting down at the Downsview Park, yes or no?

[Rénald Fortier]

I have to say I don't know, but the idea of—

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Would you say the current state of affairs with Bombardier gives you any indication whatsoever that they will be shutting down any time soon and laying off 4,000 direct and 9,000 indirect workers? Would you say that was just a reckless, negligent comment that should be corrected for the record, I would think.

[Rénald Fortier]

I simply don't know. One has to say that industry—I'm sorry.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

For the record, Mr. Chair, can I make a point of privilege.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Sullivan, on a point of order.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

I was never a union boss, and I resent the degrading kinds of comments that come from Mr. Adler on that.

[An hon. member]

Well, 4,000 workers—

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Order, please.

I'm going to Mr. Holder now to continue his questions, please.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Mr. Chair, our guests are historians, and we're trying to make them economists. I want to stay with the historical perspective, if I can, please.

In my own community of London, Ontario, we have some great history. In fact, Stanley Deluce, whose name you may know, was one of the classic bush pilots. Historically, he was one of the pioneers in northern Ontario and went on to become the chairman of Porter Airlines, and his family carries on in that capacity.

So it scared me, Mr. Fortier, when you called bush planes pickup trucks with wings. That made me a little nervous.

[Rénald Fortier]

It's but a term of endearment.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I won't tell the Deluce family that, but I'm sure it's very true.

You talk about biofuels as one of the ways that may be utilized going forward. In fact, in some respects it's already being used. In my own community of London, Ontario, through Western—our university—we have the Institute for Chemicals and Fuels from Alternative Resources. They will take leaves, bark, and various things and they have two byproducts: one is basically fertilizer for soil; the other is jet fuel. Who knew? They are going through this process now, which is quite amazing.

When we've had representatives from the transportation industry, particularly around various fuels and the automobile, one thing they've said is that going forward there are two ways you save money. One is related to the type of fuel and the other to the weight of the vehicle. I'm sure historically you've seen those developments over time.

If I can ask you to be a futurist rather than an economist, where do you see the greatest economy associated with those developments, going forward?

[Rénald Fortier]

The aircraft manufacturing industry as far as airliners are concerned—we'll leave aside the military side—is a mature industry. The idea that you can have massive increases or decreases in fuel consumption is difficult. If it were a new industry, no. If you look at an airliner of 1960, such as a DC-8, and look at an Airbus A380, and move them a certain distance and remove the painting, they haven't changed a whole lot.

An engineer will tell you that the engines are far more fuel-efficient, the electronics are light years ahead, and so are the aerodynamics, but it's a very conservative industry in certain senses. As far as the future is concerned, what could really help won't be anything massive. It's the idea of small items—a per cent here, half a per cent there, and a sort of tweak here—making sure that the improvement in efficiency doesn't double the cost of the airplane, because the whole thing has to be taken into consideration.

It's incrementalism. They're trying to improve the aircraft and keep them easy to maintain.

Some of the larger assistance as far as fuel efficiency is concerned, for example.... That's the sort of thing that will take awhile, in some cases a very long while, and it would prove very expensive. They have types of engines that have been.... There's nothing new under the sun. Many of the ideas we think of as novelties today, they were thinking about 25 years ago.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

In my own city, London, we have the jet aircraft museum, which is relatively new. If you're not familiar with it, we would invite all committee members to come to London to see it. It talks about the history of the jet and is thus very much, I think, associated with what you do.

What I didn't hear from you, which is unfortunate, as it relates to innovation is the other part of your business card, which says Canada Aviation and Space Museum. I didn't hear anything about space. This will be my last point, I'm sure—chair?

I don't know whether you have any comment concerning that.

[Rénald Fortier]

Transportation in space.... There were certainly projects of space planes, but the idea of transportation as far as space is concerned is rather nebulous and may not exist for awhile, I'm afraid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Ms. Morin.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here today.

I am going to pick up on my colleagues' comments about jobs.

As we saw a few weeks ago, in the case of Aveos or in the aerospace sector overall, job losses are a reality. A lot of jobs were cut, especially in my riding, where 2,800 workers lost their jobs. And we know the production is moving to Brazil.

In Canada, there has been legislation in the past that protected our jobs. We feel the same should apply to these jobs. In any case, I want to hear your take on the use of legislation to protect workers and the government's withdrawal in this area. I am not sure whether you feel or your research shows that this type of protection should be maintained, strengthened or eliminated.

[Rénald Fortier]

Our clientele tends to be very interested in the aircraft themselves, so we have to talk about the aircraft.

Personally, I'm more interested in the people and the history—not the history of the airplanes themselves, but the social history and the context surrounding the history. The legal aspects, or the idea of unionization, certainly—because there's a history of that militancy in the aircraft industry throughout the ages—is something I'm not all that familiar with, as far the types of legislation available are concerned and what should be there, what isn't there, and what is being removed. I'm not familiar enough to make a....

Forgive me, I answered in English.

In short, I am not in a position to make a sound judgment on the matter because I don't know enough about it. I am very sorry.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

On a different note, the topic of education came up briefly a bit earlier, and I would say having a good education is critical in the industry. I want to know a bit about your commitment to the education of people, employees, historically speaking. How do you think the government should invest in education?

[Rénald Fortier]

Mr. Quick might be able to comment on education and museums, because we do have educational programs in place.

As far as universities go, there are different components. You have the engineer and the technician. The engineer designs the aircraft and the technician repairs them. You have, for example, the École nationale d'aérotechnique de Saint-Hubert. We often get groups from that school. It is vital because you need people to work on the planes. You need the expertise to repair and build the planes here; both of those aspects need to be considered.

As for engineers, numerous schools offer engineering programs, including one in Sherbrooke, where I was born. In that respect, it's a provincial sector. Offering incentives for this type of training is a good idea, because unless I am mistaken, these engineers can easily find jobs. It is harder now because of the economic situation, but workers in the industry are very often in short supply. The positions are there, but not the workers. So the government can do its part by encouraging the high-tech sector, a cutting-edge sector.