Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bus.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Étienne Lyrette  Corporate Advisor, Governmental Affairs, External Relations and Strategic Planning, Société de transport de Montréal
Serge Carignan  Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport
François Chamberland  Director , Engineering Service, Operation, Société de transport de Montréal

9:05 a.m.

François Chamberland Director , Engineering Service, Operation, Société de transport de Montréal

The STM has set its own objectives in order to achieve that target. The STM's objective is to acquire only zero-emission vehicles, but by 2025. That means that the standard bus that the STM buys in 2025 will be 100% electric and will recharge overnight and be in service all day, achieving, we hope, the same performance as the diesel buses we operate today. Performance is very important. If our buses perform at a lower level, we need more buses, drivers and depots, as a result of which operating costs are much higher. This is something that a transit company the size of Montreal's cannot really absorb.

The public transit of tomorrow will definitely be electric in Montreal by 2025. Electric buses performing to current standards are not yet available, but we have a plan to get there. We have six projects, and that is what I am going to present to you.

We have already changed the standard STM bus. In 2012, the standard bus runs on up to 5% biodiesel. All transit authorities have signed a contract for a group purchase of hybrid buses over a four-year period starting in 2013. Why a hybrid bus? We have taken advantage of a federal program, the Urban Transportation Showcase program, to test hybrid vehicles in cooperation with our colleagues from Gatineau. That is the bus that appears in the photograph. We have been able to compare the performance of this hybrid bus with that of our standard buses.

We have measured fuel savings of 30% in our actual operations in Montreal. Based on our current fuel cost, we will be able to recover our investment by the end of the buses' economic life, which is 16 years. In addition to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and fuel consumption, we will ultimately save a little money. The four-year contract, which will be awarded very soon, covers 1,000 buses for all of Quebec's transit authorities.

We also have another project to introduce electric midibuses in Montreal. Midibuses are a little smaller, 9 metres long instead of 12. They are smaller because current batteries do not perform as well. We cannot have an electric 12-metre bus that performs to the desired level. So we are going with smaller buses. With these buses, we cannot engage in massive public transit on very busy routes. We are targeting tourist routes. Initially, they will be the Old Port in Old Montreal and then Mont-Royal park and places like that.

The STM has ordered seven midibuses. The contract has been awarded, and our call for tenders was of course public. That is part of the problem we want to speak to you about this morning. We received only one bid. A single company is interested in supplying us with electric buses: DesignLine, in the United States. After conducting some checks, we awarded it the contract. For the STM, this is our first experience with electric buses. We will learn a lot about operations, maintenance and engineering. Of course, we will share all we learn with the other transit authorities interested, in both Quebec and Canada.

We cannot achieve the target set by the provincial government, which is to have 95% of passenger trips by electric public transport by 2030, using the smaller buses that I showed you. The heavy traffic is not on the tourist routes, but rather on the major routes. We have two projects addressing the major routes where there are a lot of people, where we have to go fast, where we have to move a lot of people.

The purpose of the first project is to reintroduce trolleybuses to Montreal. We have a study under way. We are looking at three very busy main lines in Montreal and some 100 articulated buses with increased capacity. The trolleybus is an completely proven technology. Today some 40,000 trolleybuses are operating on roads around the world, in snow, on ice and in the mountains, without any problem. This is really not a technological challenge. The challenge, of course, is to convince the city's urban planners to add routes, but we are working very hard on that. We are convinced the public will be very receptive to these buses.

The next project concerns a slightly heavier mode of transportation than trolleybuses. And it is intended for busier routes. It is a tramway system. The City of Montreal and the STM are partners on this one. The objective is to reintroduce tramways to the streets of Montreal. The studies have been completed. We are talking about three tramway lines. The City of Montreal is currently looking for funding. This is quite an expensive project.

We are future-oriented. This is not just about midibuses and trolleybuses: we have to think of all our other bus routes. We have a project under way with our partners, Nova Bus and Bombardier. The idea is to recharge a 12-metre electric bus, a standard bus for the STM, by induction, that is to say without contact. That is what you see in the picture. This is in fact very simple: a plate generates an electromagnetic field when the bus is above it, and a plate under the bus captures the energy without making contact. This is what we want to test. It is really a research and development project. This technology is currently raising more questions than it answers, but we are confident. If it works, and we hope it does, it will help offset current battery performance deficiencies and enable us to put 12-metre electric buses into circulation long before 2025.

The STM still calculates its greenhouse gas emissions by displacement. We take into account not only bus emissions, but also those associated with our buildings and service vehicles. According to a new STM policy, every time we have to replace a service vehicle, whether it be a car, a truck, a van or a special vehicle that operates in the metro at night, we conduct very serious market research to find an appropriate electric vehicle. As you can see, we recently bought a number of Chevrolet Volts. We try to find electric vehicles in every case.

9:10 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

There are also projects at transit corporations other than Montreal's. The nine transit authorities have joined forces and are sharing in all the projects. The people from the Laval authority have bought a fully-electric 40-foot bus and are waiting for delivery. In Quebec City, under the urban transportation showcase program, which the federal government has subsidized, they have bought seven electric microbuses, which are now in operation in Old Quebec. In addition, a project to convert a hybrid vehicle to a plug-in-type electric vehicle is being considered by the Longueuil transit system.

There are no electric bus manufacturers in Canada, and that is really a problem. Some are currently conducting research and development, but, generally speaking, there is no supply in this area in Canada. Supply is very limited even in North America. As we mentioned, in a recent call for bids, only one bidder expressed interest in manufacturing that type of vehicle. Foreign manufacturers are also not very interested in coming to North America because regulations pose numerous challenges for them. In the United States, transit authorities tend not to opt for electricity. Instead they look at natural gas and other substitute products. As electricity is not always produced cleanly, it does not necessarily represent a major advantage. The cost of electricity in the United States and elsewhere in Canada is quite high, and, in many cases, it is produced using fossil fuels.

I told you there were a number of manufacturers in Europe and Asia. However, it is difficult to buy small quantities of these vehicles as a result of regulations. For example, if we want to test four or five vehicles, it is not cost-effective for a foreign manufacturer to provide us with that kind of product on that kind of scale. There will be other challenges when we want hundreds, and that will cause other problems. North American regulations are different from those in Europe and elsewhere, and this is a challenge that we constantly have to overcome.

As previously mentioned, some federal programs have produced results in the past. The urban transportation showcase made it possible for us to evaluate the hybrid buses. Consequently, in our next call for bids, we will buy 500 hybrid buses with an option for 500 more. In other words, this program has produced positive results. The fact that seven electric buses could be tested in Quebec City has opened the door to this technology. This enables us to look into the future and to consider using a vehicle of this kind. In short, financial support has produced results in the past, and I believe the same kind of support will be necessary to enable us to move forward.

9:15 a.m.

Corporate Advisor, Governmental Affairs, External Relations and Strategic Planning, Société de transport de Montréal

Étienne Lyrette

Our recommendations are similar to those already stated by my colleague. To provide some assistance in the transition to a fleet of electric buses or, as necessary, a fleet of electric vehicles, the idea would be to facilitate the importing of foreign technologies, at least in the short or medium terms. To be able to conduct trials and pilot projects, an effort should be made to address the issues of standards and compliance with the countries with which we might be doing business.

Support should obviously be provided for the electric transit file through research and development and showcase programs. This is the third time we have mentioned this, but an initiative like the urban transportation showcase program is a very big success story. A technology has been developed and we now see the actual results that has produced. We have taken part in the development of a Canadian industrial sector and we are now buying hybrid buses. These programs are not necessarily financially significant on the scale of the Government of Canada, but they are really promising and have had very positive consequences for both the environment and from an economic and social standpoint.

On a slightly larger scale, transit projects should be eligible for the next infrastructure program. We know the federal government is reviewing its building Canada plan and that public transit was an eligible category in that program. That helped support a number of projects across the country. We would obviously like public transit to remain an eligible category in the next version of the program, which is scheduled for 2014.

Thank you for your attention and for allowing us to share our views with you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Monsieur Aubin.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for your presentation. I hope this will encourage you to make a quick switch to these technologies of the future. However, I admit I initially thought, that's it, we will be adopting these electric vehicles very soon, but the more I listened to you, the more I saw the barriers to establishing a full fleet.

If possible, I would like you to tell us about this regulatory flexibility you are seeking that would enable us to import technologies from countries that are clearly ahead of us. I am thinking of certain European countries, for example. Could you give us some examples of the barriers you are facing?

9:15 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

For motors, Canada relies on U.S. regulations. In the case of city buses, a single manufacturer in North America manufactures an eligible motor for public transit purposes. There is competition in Europe: five or six manufacturers build motors that meet European standards. If you compare European standards to those in North America, you can say that, when a North American standard is established, it is more restrictive, but that the European standard subsequently exceeds it. They follow each other and, year after year, seem quite similar to the average person. If we accepted a European standard, we would see that a bus in Paris is not that different from a bus in Ottawa. The European companies could then provide Canada with vehicles equipped with European motors. They currently have to import the motors, which is not cost-effective for them. The Canadian and North American market is very small compared to the European market.

We now have two manufacturers in Canada: one manufactures between 500 and 1,000 buses a year and the other between 2,000 and 3,000. In Europe, every manufacturer builds 4,000 to 8,000 buses a year. Our market is a small one. Standards are too strict and unappealing for European companies. If they could send us a stock bus at a reasonable price—because it should also be said that volume makes for good prices in Europe—we would be able to benefit from the technology developed there by multinationals such as Volvo, Mercedes and Scania. Our bus manufacturers here are not necessarily large companies like that. New Flyer and Orion International, for example, sometimes receive support, but we are talking about small volumes and small manufacturers.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Can you give me some concrete examples of the differences between those standards? We are not just talking about conversion. We are not wondering whether we are going to use a European plug or an American plug to recharge batteries.

9:20 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

In North America, bumpers must resist a collision at 7.5 km/hr, whereas the standard in Europe is 5 km/hr. As a result of this 2.5 km/hr difference, a European front bumper does not meet the Canadian standard.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Consequently, electric technology is not necessarily the problem.

9:20 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

I see, it is not the electric technology. There is something lacking in the standards. The problem stems from all the other parts of the bus. It is in that area that this does not meet the standards. In Europe, you have to break the glass in an emergency. In Canada, the glass must open in response to a blow, but it must not break. As a result of these choices, which each party has made, standards are incompatible.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

So we could make the technological switch, but we would have to find a bridge in the very design of the buses, which would at least make it possible to conduct pilot projects.

Have there been any requests for a pilot project with buses that meet European standards?

9:20 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

Transport Canada allows us to import a vehicle for one year, but it has to be destroyed at the end of the year or it must leave Canadian soil. A Fiat IVECO is currently being tested in Montreal. Several thousands of units of that vehicle are being manufactured in Europe. We are entitled to one, but we will test it over eight months because we must not exceed one year. Then we will return it. We cannot acquire it; that would be too expensive since we can only test it for one year. We have reached an agreement with the manufacturer that is lending it to us for a year.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Has a request been made to the federal government to amend that rule, which would make it possible to introduce a pilot project?

9:20 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

Requests beyond one year are denied.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Have you been given a reason or are you just denied?

9:20 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

I have no answer to that question.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Do you believe that this target of changing over 95% of the fleet is realistic? The objective is to reach 95% of transit trips in electric vehicles, if possible. However, the more I listen to you, the less I see how that can be achieved unless there is a substantial change in the rules that would allow us to move the file forward.

9:20 a.m.

Director , Engineering Service, Operation, Société de transport de Montréal

François Chamberland

As Serge said at the start of the presentation, the target is for 95% of trips to be done by electricity. So we are not talking about 95% of the vehicles, but about 95% of trips.

Currently in Quebec, half of public transit trips are done by vehicles powered by electricity. We are already at 50%. The Montreal metro transports people on electric power.

We are trying to introduce two heavy means of transportation in Montreal: the tramway and the trolleybus. These two modes of transport will be used for the six or seven busiest routes in the Montreal system. So we should make a jump of 20% or 25% with those two systems alone. They are proven technologies. This is not really a technological challenge since tramways and trolleybuses run everywhere. Money is the issue.

Then we should look at batteries. We do not have a choice since we will not be installing wires across Montreal Island to run the trolleybuses and definitely will not be installing rails across Montreal. So we have to look to rechargeable buses, and that is the objective of our research and development project. We want to try to increase the range of existing buses beyond what batteries currently permit.

Today you have to add a 6,000-kg battery to a normal 12-metre bus in order to have a 500-km range like a diesel bus. That is a really big challenge. It is a technological challenge for battery manufacturers.

What helps us a lot—

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

At what level of government are the obstacles preventing you from further developing this bus and tramway project?

9:25 a.m.

Director , Engineering Service, Operation, Société de transport de Montréal

François Chamberland

The biggest obstacle in the case of the tramway is currently funding. So that is at the provincial level. As for the trolleybus, the project is currently under review, but we are confident. Hydro-Québec will help us with the fixed equipment that comes with the trolleybus. Quebec's department of transport would be prepared to pay the difference between the cost of a normal vehicle and that of an electric vehicle, in other words the difference in price for a trolleybus.

Funding for the trolleybus project is going very well. Where the trolleybus project could bog down a little is really over the issue whether it is acceptable to reinstall wires. It was very expensive to bury all the wires in Montreal, and now we want to add wires. One factor is working in our favour: modern trolleybuses do not always need to be touching electric wires. We can lower the poles, run a few kilometres on batteries or accumulators and reinstall the poles a little farther on. So if the trolley is in an area where we do not really want to reinstall wires, that will not be an obstacle.

For example, in China—

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I have to interrupt there. I'm sorry.

Mr. Coderre, it is your turn.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

This is important in two respects. First, we have talked a lot about natural gas since the start. Here we are showing that there is another alternative solution. The purpose of our work is to produce a range of recommendations. I would like to thank you for your presentation. Then there is the issue of recommendations. We are going to go directly to the heart of the matter.

I am referring to what my colleague told you earlier about regulations. I understand that you are recommending, for example, if there is a free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union, that there be an intellectual property and regulatory factor that would permit greater vehicle traffic. Is that correct?

9:25 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

Yes, that is exactly it.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

As for regulations, are we able to enter into bilateral agreements without having an extensive free trade agreement? Are there any countries in Europe with which we could work more? Can we talk about France or Germany? Could that be a possibility? It can take a lot of time to establish an agreement with the European Union. Do you think we could proceed in that way?

9:25 a.m.

Director, Engineering and Technical Services, Société de gestion et d'acquisition de véhicules de transport

Serge Carignan

The members of the European community have standardized their regulations. A major step has been taken in that area. They have also raised their standards. The United States has traditionally had very high standards respecting vehicle pollution. As I explained earlier, now it is similar. When the United States Environmental Protection Agency issues a new standard, the United States is ahead of Europe. Two years later, however, Europe adopts a new standard and moves ahead of North America.

For a transporter whose vehicle we hold on to for 16 years, we do not necessarily need to comply with standards every month. The two standards are quite equivalent, depending on the time of year when we select the vehicle. I remind you that Canada does not write its own standards, but bases them on those of the United States. If we had a vehicle that complied with European standards and that we were allowed to operate in Canada, we would be in a position to say that it is good for us because it complies with the American or European standard. In that case, we would have a greater extension.