Evidence of meeting #43 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I respect people and I would like the same in return, especially as, at this point, we are talking about human beings managing fatigue.
What is your association doing in this regard? What more should it do? It would seem that this is a problem and that it needs to be solved.
9:15 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
That is a very good question. I will begin and then I will ask my colleagues to answer your question as well.
I think in terms of fatigue, probably the most significant thing we could do to monitor what's going on with our workers, especially the drivers of trains, is to introduce video technology into the trains.
The one thing that's preventing us from doing that has been a debate about whether that is by unions or in legislation. It's something we're working on. In fact, I had a meeting with the Transportation Safety Board yesterday to talk about this. We'd like to work collaboratively with them to introduce it, but like anything else, it's complex.
To me, it's something that's going to have to happen. The technology, obviously, is a lot less expensive than it used to be. I think the public would have an expectation that in terms of safety, we need to know what's going on, and we need to use that technology to prevent accidents. Whether it's monitoring fatigue or it's determining whether drivers are getting bored and starting to text or to use iPads or any of the myriad of technologies we have today, I think we would see significant benefits from the introduction of that technology.
9:15 a.m.
General Manager, Technical Standards, Canadian Pacific Railway
If I could add to that a little, I think really the best thing to do is to try to make sure drivers don't become fatigued in the first place. We've done a lot of research that has looked at biorhythms. We actually have a software program we use that keeps track of people's roster time and tries to advise us when someone might be in a situation where they have not had the amount of sleep they might need to perform alertly.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I am told that it is 24/7, that engineers sometimes work for long periods. How do you increase monitoring? This is not only anecdotal, it is actually happening. Should Parliament be enforcing the Railway Safety Act?
In the labour dispute at Canadian Pacific, I do not understand why the employer could not find a solution on fatigue management. You can have all the technology you want, but if people are not fit to do their work, it is useless. I am prepared to think about new ways of monitoring. Essentially, what matters to everyone is to help the public. We know that when things go off the rails, it can lead to major problems. We need to focus on prevention.
What else is required? Do we have a part to play in this situation or is it enough for the employer to simply sign an agreement with the union?
9:15 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
Dwight, did you want to add anything to this debate?
9:15 a.m.
Chief, Engineering Technology, Canadian National Railway Company
Fatigue and fatigue management are significant issues in any industry that operates on a 7/24 basis, and certainly that's the definition of the railroad.
One of the best things the railway can do—and we strive very hard to do this—is to make sure our trains run on schedule and they run on time. When our trains are on schedule and on time, we know when the trains are going to depart. It makes it much easier for us to forecast crew times, when we're going to call our crews, and when the crews have to be ready for work. If we can tell a crew 8 or 10 or 12 hours out that they're likely to be called in a certain window, it makes it much easier for them to plan their rest. We strive to do that whenever we can.
In a lot of places we do have defined call periods for our crews, when the crews will be called and when they won't. That's not one hundred per cent. That certainly seems to be of benefit as well.
But I'll go back and say that the key for us is to be able to schedule our trains, to know when the trains are leaving, and to manage our crews based on when the crews are going to be leaving the terminals so they have adequate time to get their rest.
9:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
I'll ask Mike Lowenger, who is VP of operations and regulatory affairs at the Railway Association of Canada. He has been in the railway industry for 38 years.
My understanding is that people who feel that they are at that limit can certainly take themselves out of service.
Maybe you could elaborate a little bit more to respond to Monsieur Coderre.
9:20 a.m.
Mike Lowenger Vice-President, Railway Association of Canada
There are some federal rules governing work/rest. They have fences. They include the fact that if somebody doesn't feel that he or she is rested and can operate, the person can obviously book rest at any time.
One thing that happened after the Railway Safety Act review was that the unions, government, and the railway industry got together to look at fatigue. Their recommendation was to identify better fatigue management plans and procedures, which were integrated into that rule. Everyone agreed with the approach, so we're expecting a higher standard for fatigue management under the rules for the future.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
That is for the future. Is it the near future? Can it go ahead now?
9:20 a.m.
Vice-President, Railway Association of Canada
Yes, now, because the railways had to submit their revised fatigue management plans in November of last year. They are currently being reviewed. We hope to soon talk to Transport about whether they're satisfied with their content and their objectives.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Merci.
I have one more question.
Mr. Bourque, what percentage of your costs is for fuel? We know that it is the most expensive item for bus operators. That is why we need to reassess what we are using. Overall, for rail companies, what percentage of your cost is related to fuel?
9:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
If I understand your question properly, you want to know what percentage of our costs relate to fuel.
9:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
I have no idea, but hopefully one of these engineers will be able to answer the question.
9:20 a.m.
Chief, Engineering Technology, Canadian National Railway Company
It goes back and forth a little bit. Fuel is either our number one or number two cost driver for the railroad. I know that for CN, our fuel expense on an annual basis is well over $1 billion. It is a huge expense for the railroad. It's why we spend a lot of time and a lot of effort looking at fuel conservation and alternate fuels. There's a significant potential advantage for us in that as well, because fuel is one of the biggest cost drivers for the railroad.
9:20 a.m.
General Manager, Technical Standards, Canadian Pacific Railway
It's in the neighbourhood of about $600 million or $700 million a year.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back quickly to the question of electrified rail lines in Canada.
We talk quite often in the committee about what is happening in other countries. Just to give us a bit of perspective relative to some other countries, such as some of the European countries that are using this technology, what is the length of rail line we're looking at converting, in comparison, on a percentage basis? Do you have any figures on that?
9:20 a.m.
Chief, Engineering Technology, Canadian National Railway Company
No, I don't.
I've ridden on the U.S. and European railroads a little bit. The fundamental driver in the European railroad system is passengers. They haul freight on their passenger lines. So the electrification there is fundamentally different.
CN has no active plan to convert any of our lines, at this point, to electrified. I'm not sure if that answers your question.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
I'm assuming that you understand the rail industry around the world to some degree. I'm just trying to get a sense of it. Do we have 10 times as many lines, or 100 times? What kind of rough, proportionate rail-line conversion is required?
9:20 a.m.
Chief, Engineering Technology, Canadian National Railway Company
I'll take a stab at that.
The typical freight run in North America for CN is over 1,000 kilometres. That's a good run for a freight car. In Europe it would be, I would assume, less than about a third of that to go between major centres. So we have runs that are three times and maybe four times longer than theirs.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Part of the challenge you're facing with electrification is the sheer volume of lines you have to deal with compared to some other countries that have been able to do some of these things.
9:20 a.m.
Chief, Engineering Technology, Canadian National Railway Company
Absolutely. And some of our lines go through territory where there is no source of electrification. In northern Ontario, for example, we had to put our own power in just to run our CTC and radio equipment. There is no commercial power readily available, so that adds complexity as well.
