Transport Committee on April 30th, 2013

[Terrance Oakey]

We're just starting our campaign to raise this with officials and MPs and others. Overall, I think people are supportive of the principle.

I think you have identified where some of the opposition will come from and where some of the details have to be worked out.

We actually think that the federal government has a fiduciary responsibility to ensure that when they transfer $100 million, it is actually spent in a proper way, and that all of the taxpayers that pay into that fund are able to access it, regardless of whether union contractors or non-union contractors can bid. Let the best bid win.

I think all levels of government have that responsibility. I would love it if all cities across the country had that. Some do and some don't. I'd love it if all provinces did, but some do, and some don't.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

You're a veteran. We've known you for a very long time, and we're also familiar with your fight. You've been cutting a path through this jungle for a while. You can spend a week lobbying and have coffee with the MP, but what do department officials tell you, people at Public Works, for example?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

In what sense?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

If you argue that they aren't respecting the ruling, what do they say to you?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

Whether the project is at the Ottawa airport or here, on Parliament Hill, if the general contractor has signed an agreement with one of the unions and was awarded the contract, the construction site is not accessible to me if I haven't signed an agreement with that union. I'm penalized because I'm not unionized.

As Terrance mentioned, you can choose to join a union, but you shouldn't be penalized for choosing not to. And that is my experience. I am being penalized because I chose not to go that route.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Did you ask the project officers, those who administer the bidding process, for example, why you aren't allowed to bid?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

No, it's always through the general contractor. That is who has the contract—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

It's subcontracting.

[Jocelyn Dumais]

In the area, it's SNC-Lavalin. It stops there. There doesn't seem to be any kind of policy in that regard.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Very well.

We still have a minute. I'm impressed.

I'm getting the sense that the tendency is to systematically put the blame on the union.

Why do you think closed tendering processes are held? At the end of the day, taxpayers want the work to be done within a specific time frame without any extra charges or gouging; they want good value for their money. I hope the unions aren't being blamed for that.

You believe the problem lies with the unions?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

No. Part of the problem is that there aren't enough people like me standing up for their rights, and so the system simply disregards us. If unions have more lobbying influence, unionized shops, by extension, have the advantage when it comes to obtaining contracts. In Canada, 77% of companies, including mine, don't have access to those construction sites and are left out in the cold.

The Champlain bridge came up earlier. You aren't allowed to require a company or a worker to be unionized. I understand the situation in Quebec; I have to obey the law in place. But elsewhere in Canada, in places like Toronto, federal projects are being carried out and no provincial legislation applies. In those cases, there should be provisions stipulating that companies and workers cannot be required to be unionized in order to work on federal construction sites. It's a matter of freedom of choice.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

We now move to Mr. Poilievre, for seven minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Dumais, would you prefer it if unionized shops weren't allowed to compete?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

No.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You're prepared to compete with them?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

Yes.

When you're in business, you're ready and willing to compete with anyone, union or non-union. The only objection I have is that if I'm non-union, I can't compete with those who are in the union.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You're not suggesting that unionized firms should be prevented from bidding on contracts.

[Jocelyn Dumais]

No, on the contrary.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You are suggesting that non-unionized shops be given the same rights.

[Jocelyn Dumais]

I am suggesting that they have equal rights. I am also suggesting that the unionized shops holding the contracts not force their subcontractors to be unionized and not be permitted to keep non-unionized shops off constructions sites. That isn't the reality now.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You have a construction company in Quebec, is that right?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

It's just in Ontario. I live in Quebec, but I am an Ontario contractor.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Your company isn't allowed to do business in Quebec. Is that right?

[Jocelyn Dumais]

I've never worked in Quebec, like many people in the Gatineau area.