Evidence of meeting #32 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
That would be closer to what I could probably achieve.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So we can expect, then, to get the facts from your members, because we're being told something by the front-line inspections, including Captain Slunder, that the numbers are jived, that there are sleights of hands at play, that the numbers are not accurate, that the number the minister is using is false.
Could you help us with the facts, because you are on the front line of companies that have actually complied? Can you tell us how many direct and unannounced inspections there have been?
9:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
I will inquire among my members to give you that information, absolutely, as far as scheduled inspections and unscheduled inspections are concerned. I will give you that raw data with pleasure.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing.
Just off the top, either Mr. Blandford or Mr. Adamus, whoever would like to tackle this, what is the difference—for the public who are listening in—between a compliance inspection, an SMS audit, and a process validation inspection? Can you briefly outline the differences between those?
9:25 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
I'm certainly not an expert in those areas but we always refer to the traditional audit as “kicking the tires”. I've been in this business for over 30 years and in the early days you would see inspectors walking around the aircraft taking a look at it.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
We knew at the time it was a traditional inspection.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Because definitions matter....
We've heard from witnesses last week. In the first testimony we heard, no inspections were done whatsoever. We have to be careful about what the differences are between a compliance inspection and a safety management system audit and a process validation inspection. Transport Canada has responded to an order paper question in the past on those specific definitions and provided numbers. For the comfort of Canadians who are watching, they need to know what the differences are and who's doing what.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
Again, for the terminology, I'm probably not the person to ask. That's not something we normally discuss with our company. We know that inspections are going on. That said, for example, I'm doing recurrent training in a simulator next week, and there could be a Transport Canada inspector sitting beside the instructor to ensure that everything is as it should be. I've gone through that many times in my career.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Craig Blandford
I know there's lot of labels and names. Some folks say that we should have these inspections and some folks say that we should have audits. The ultimate goal is to make sure that we're safe and set up a system that ensures we're safe. That's why I emphasize to you that with the three legs of that stool, the third leg is not formal, and that's the stakeholders, and in our case, the pilots. I will argue any day of the week that we have in our group as much or more experience than any of the pilots at Transport Canada do. We have similar training and similar backgrounds. That doesn't mean we're any better or any worse. My point is that if we're part of that three-legged stool, we can ensure that the appropriate standards and the appropriate safeguards are in place such that we're operating safely. And we do, and we are safe.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
This isn't a theoretical discussion, however.
I'm thinking about a report called “Stronger Ties”. It was a report done on the rail safety side by an independent advisory panel. They talked about a five-point grading system for safety management systems, from immature to fully mature. According to that ranking, a five, which is fully mature, would be that SMS audits replace traditional inspection. In other words, compliance inspection would be done on an as-needed basis if anything is identified as a risk in the safety management system. The question really relates to the following. Is that what we desire? Is there a proper mix, short of that, that's much more desirable? If SMS is to be an added layer, it probably shouldn't be replacing traditional inspection, but what is the balance between the activities of not only airline companies but also Transport Canada in forming that mix? How many audits are appropriate? How many compliance inspections are appropriate? Transport Canada will say that it tabled in the House information that it had done some 13,000 traditional inspections in 2010-11. We have a union that says they've done zero since 2004.
We have to get to the nub of this question. It's very important.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Ed Bunoza
With regard to how the system works, your SMS program is approved by Transport Canada.
I come to you and say that this is my plan; this is how I'm going to deal with the paperwork, basically. Every 18 months to 36 months, they'll come back and do a PVI, a performance validation inspection. They'll take a component of it, let's say the flight safety component, and they'll look at it. They'll do the PVI on that portion of it and they'll come back with it.
Now, they used to give you a grading score from zero to five. I think they've removed that now. They just assess the program and they give you a report. If they see you're weak in some area, you have anywhere from one to 30 days to create a corrective action plan. That's how it works at Air Canada.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Craig Blandford
Every day.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Ed Bunoza
Every day the tires are kicked.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Ed Bunoza
No—
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Capt Ed Bunoza
Well, what do you mean by “kicking the tires”?
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Adamus used the expression that in terms of a traditional inspection, somebody would be kicking the tires, so to speak.
9:30 a.m.
Capt Ed Bunoza
I think we have to ask ourselves, was that method of doing business more effective than the way it is now?
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
That's a separate question. I'm just trying to verify whether in fact anybody at Transport Canada is inspecting any particular aspect. Is anybody looking at wheel bearings, the safety of emergency doors, flight instrumentation, or any of those types of aspects? Is anybody verifying that at Transport Canada?
