Evidence of meeting #33 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inspection.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Laureen Kinney  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Martin Eley  Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Luc Bourdon  Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

Yes. The standards are set internationally. Canada applies them through our regulations. We do have an oversight program. CATSA also has a very strong oversight program with their contractors.

The standards that we apply are consistent with or greater than those of the rest of the world. We spend a fair bit of time making sure that those standards are such that we can work on arrangements to provide opportunities for new approaches with other countries, based on their confidence in the level of our security screening.

There is an average number of passengers processed per hour for CATSA, but as to how that relates to the amount of time you spend on a bag.... Is the bag full or empty? Does it have a computer in it that has a density that you can't see through? Does it have in it liquids and gels that were forgotten? There are huge variations.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sullivan, for five minutes.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

On the business of planned and unplanned, announced and unannounced, we had testimony last week that suggested that since 2004, there were none in terms of unannounced, that even for unplanned inspections there was some notice given to the airlines.

I know that SUR-009 requires an annual surveillance plan. Can we get a copy of this year's annual surveillance plan and a copy of all the reports that have been generated by that surveillance, so since April 1, 2013, as required? Can we get that?

10:10 a.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

By way of clarification, is that the plan for this year starting in April, or finishing in April for last year?

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

It's starting in April 2013 until April 2014.

10:10 a.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Martin Eley

Okay. Certainly we have the list of activity. The documentation is fairly significant that goes with that.

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

It's a matter of where the documentation is, and I'd just want to go back and look at what's possible to pull together, because it's a lot of material. It would be multiple binders.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

That's fine; whatever it is.

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

It's just a matter of where it is and how well it can be brought together for that purpose.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

The suggestion that there are no unannounced inspections any more causes some alarm. Your report will show, if it's an analysis of what has actually taken place since April 2013, which ones had no announcement.

We also note that in the definition of surveillance—this goes back to Ms. Chow's suggestion that there have been 13,664 inspections—an inspection or a surveillance includes an e-mail. If there were 13,663 e-mails and one inspection, we wouldn't know.

I don't consider an e-mail to a company to be surveillance, really, but your own documents indicate that's what that is. Can you at least break that out for us so that we can know where there's been a physical presence, as in surveillance, as opposed to just an e-mail from the department or an inspector to a company?

10:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

To your first point, I would clarify that in fact, unannounced inspections do occur. They are allowed. They are incorporated where appropriate. We don't track them, though, in the documentation. That's not a field we've added to our reporting system. In terms of what you're requesting, the documents will not necessarily show whether it was an announced versus an unannounced inspection.

I can assure you, and my staff assures me, that these do go on and that we are carrying out unannounced, but dividing them out by numbers or by which type of activity may not come out of that document.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

So you have no way of questioning the evidence given last week that there are none anymore, that they just don't happen.

Second—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Excuse me, Mr. Sullivan.

The bells are ringing. We're going to have votes.

It's going to shorten up the time, and there's nothing you or I can do about it.

My suggestion is that to try to be fair here—

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Can I finish my five—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

—I'm going to give you.... Yes, you have almost two minutes left, but basically I'll give two questions more to the opposition—one to you and one to Mr. McGuinty—and the same over here. That will still allow us to get to the chamber to vote and have a couple of minutes of personal time.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you.

My next question has to do with what Mr. Watson suggested that my original question wasn't, and that is, I do know that it was TSB that suggested the railroads should do the risk assessment and the speed assessments for transportation of dangerous goods through heavily populated areas.

I assume, but maybe I'm wrong, that the railroads don't do these things in a vacuum, that they actually report that to Transport Canada. Over the next three years we're going to continue to have DOT-111 cars racing through heavily populated areas unless the railroads themselves decide that it's unsafe. We've heard testimony that it's unsafe at 20 miles an hour, but they're running at 40.

I'll try to speed up to the question. Can you send us copies of the corridor risk assessments that you've received from the railroads so far as a result of that directive?

10:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

Just to clarify, the emergency directive that was issued did require railways to carry out these risk assessments. It gave them a series of factors to consider taken from some of the U.S. activities and some of our own considerations. Those will be provided to us and we will look at them, but they are still being done. I'm not sure that we've received any as of yet.

In the meantime, in the emergency directive, there were specific instructions and directions to reduce speed and to carry out some of these other effects, to look at wayside detections and a whole series of other mitigation measures for reducing risk. Finally, the other element that was important in that emergency directive was the direction to the railways to develop a protocol with local municipalities which have local knowledge, local issues of concern, and to see how those risk factors and those inputs could be fed into the railway risk assessment.

This is something that was put in place very quickly and required them to comply immediately, but there are steps that will need to have further work. Certainly Transport Canada will be looking very closely at those risk assessments.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Can we get copies?

10:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

In terms of the risk assessments, I'd have to go back and look at that, because risk assessments have a considerable amount of company proprietary information. There are some issues around that. Let me just take a look at that if I may in terms of the details.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you.

Mr. McGuinty, one question please.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I'm going to try to limit everybody to about two minutes for the question and answer.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I have a couple of quick snappers.

I have in my hand an e-mail that confirms that six weeks after the government was elected in 2006, the national audit program was cancelled. Is that correct?

10:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

Yes, that's correct.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Can I ask you about the number of 705 category airlines. Are there 38 of them?