Evidence of meeting #129 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pilots.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Vanderaegen  Flight School Director, Southern Interior Flight Centre, Carson Air
Mike Hoff  Captain, External Affairs Committee, Air Canada Pilots Association
Caroline Farly  Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs
Stephen Fuhr  Kelowna—Lake Country, Lib.
Churence Rogers  Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.
Heather Bell  Board Chair, British Columbia Aviation Council
Joseph Armstrong  Vice-President and General Manager, CAE
Terri Super  Chief Executive Officer, Super T Aviation
Gary Ogden  Chief Executive Officer, Go Green Aviation

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

I would beg to differ on whether a private institution can do it. It's whether they choose to do it. I think that is the issue. I think it's incumbent upon industry to actually try to escalate that bar. If we're going to have excellence, then we should be training people to be excellent.

That being said, with respect to regulations, my question would be for Ms. Farly and Marc Vanderaegen.

Would these regulations be more of a burden to you as a company, or would you see them as something that would augment your ability to receive additional funding and support for your students and for your own company?

11:50 a.m.

Flight School Director, Southern Interior Flight Centre, Carson Air

Marc Vanderaegen

I guess I'm trying to understand what regulations you're actually talking about as a potential.... Are you talking about regulations that would allow, that would be established—

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

I mean educational standards.

11:50 a.m.

Flight School Director, Southern Interior Flight Centre, Carson Air

Marc Vanderaegen

Educational standards of...?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

You're running a flight school. It's a school.

11:50 a.m.

Flight School Director, Southern Interior Flight Centre, Carson Air

Marc Vanderaegen

It depends on how they're rolled out, I guess, and what they actually are.

Right now we have educational standards per se through Transport Canada already, so if it's just doubling them up, like we have with the Ministry of Education in B.C. where they try to manage us as well and things like that, it becomes cumbersome, and it doesn't really benefit the students.

No, if it benefits the students and can be managed, that's fine. Just bear in mind that costs do have to come out of the students' pockets unless there are other funding avenues set up as well.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Badawey.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Hoff with respect to the industry, as well as the partnership that industry may have with the Air Canada Pilots Association, and in particular Air Canada itself.

In my former life, we really encouraged industry, in partnership with unions, in partnership with communities, secondary and post-secondary schools, etc., to get students at a younger age interested in different trades, different disciplines, and with that, to partner then to start the process of co-ops, apprenticeship education, etc. Then leading into post-secondary, they would pursue those disciplines to further their education and ultimately end up in the area of expertise they want to be in.

Is there any of that partnership between the association and, in your case, Air Canada with respect to getting the younger secondary individuals interested and from there to pursue it through secondary and post-secondary? You have the air cadet programs. You have other interested organizations that would actually align with being a pilot. Is there any partnership occurring between you and Air Canada?

11:55 a.m.

Capt Mike Hoff

First of all, I'll speak to the piece with my employer. I've approached my employer. They are the apex predator. Their position is that they don't have a problem getting pilots. I've found very little traction with them. Personally, they do give me access to the simulator, as well as taking would-be pilots, who are looking at it as a career, up in my own plane. I also take them into the simulator. I thank Air Canada for the opportunity to use their simulators, but that's about where it ends.

On the altruistic side, where I feel the need to give back, I've got excellent traction through my association. People would ask why your association would use your membership's dues to hire advocates and do these studies to collect the data. The data wasn't there. I'm a pilot. I need data. I can't come and talk to you and say, “I've heard”. We did a study. We drilled down to get some data and we're trying to help.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

You seem very cautious in your comments. I'll have a little chat with you offline, after the meeting, about some of the—

11:55 a.m.

Capt Mike Hoff

I appreciate that.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

—comments that I'm sure you're being very cautious with.

With that, I'll pass it over to Mr. Iacono.

February 7th, 2019 / 11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

Good morning. Thank you for being here.

Ms. Farly, I want to commend you for having the courage to take over a business that was on the verge of going under. Sorry, I didn't mean that it was about to go under; what I meant was that it was about to close its doors. My apologies.

11:55 a.m.

Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs

Caroline Farly

That's fine.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Let's say you saved it from going under.

11:55 a.m.

Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs

Caroline Farly

I saved it from shutting down.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Precisely.

Describe for us, if you would, the challenges you faced or continue to face. What has the economic impact on regional flight schools been?

11:55 a.m.

Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs

Caroline Farly

Sorry, but are you asking about the challenges I faced getting the business back on track?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Yes, and those you continue to face.

11:55 a.m.

Chief Pilot and Chief Instructor, Aéro Loisirs

Caroline Farly

Oh, well, that's a lengthy conversation.

The biggest challenge to the school's sustainability is finding instructors. I don't mean instructors just looking to do a few hours—in any case, they don't exist anymore. I'm talking about instructors who can deliver quality training that lives up to the school's reputation—instructors who will stay with us. That's our biggest challenge in terms of long-term survival.

Another challenge I faced was managing the demand. Being a stable resource in the aviation sector, I had five places ask me to start a flying school in their region. I won't name them, mind you. One of my challenges right now is running the flight school with a view to stability, while maintaining the same standard upheld by its founder. I've been there since 2010.

Flight instructors are desperately needed all over the regions for two-engine airplanes. I was discussing it with Mr. Vanderaegen, in fact. Commercial pilots are being trained all over, with demand on the rise. However, there aren't any more two-engine airplanes for pilot training because of how expensive they are. The current wait time for two-engine pilot training is two to three months.

If I was to let the company go, despite the ever-increasing costs of the school, I would buy another plane. I would buy another two-engine plane, but I can't allow training costs to go up. Training has to remain accessible. I try to pay my instructors more. I'd like to provide more training by purchasing a two-engine plane and more, but students are already struggling to register for my programs because of the cost. There aren't any funding programs.

It's a financial challenge. I try to maintain an acceptable balance on both ends without having excessive operating costs. I'm trying to keep aviation accessible to my pilots.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm sorry, but our time has expired.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for coming today.

We will suspend momentarily, while we change our witnesses.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Welcome to our witnesses for this portion of the program. By video conference, we have Ms. Bell, Board Chair of the British Columbia Aviation Council. From CAE, we have Joseph Armstrong, Vice-President and General Manager. From Super T Aviation, we have Terri Super, Chief Executive Officer. From Go Green Aviation, we have Gary Ogden, Chief Executive Officer. Welcome to all of you.

I would ask that you keep your comments to five minutes, because the committee members always have lots of questions.

We will start with Ms. Bell from the British Columbia Aviation Council.

12:05 p.m.

Heather Bell Board Chair, British Columbia Aviation Council

Good afternoon. I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today and for the efforts being taken to address this critical issue.

I speak today as the chair of the British Columbia Aviation Council, which represents the interests of the aviation community in B.C. Personally, my 36-year career has been in air traffic control. I've worked as an operational tower controller and a radar controller. When I retired from NAV Canada, I was the general manager of the Vancouver flight information region. I was responsible for all air navigation services in the province as well as the more than 500 employees who delivered that service.

I am aware that the committee has had the opportunity to hear from many respected industry professionals. As such, I am confident in your awareness of the critical resource shortages being experienced and projected for our industry. These shortages will span the depth and breadth of our industry and will include but not be limited to airport operators, air traffic controllers, aircraft maintenance engineers and pilots.

As the motion before the committee is specific to pilots, I will focus my comments on the pilot shortage and the difficulties at the flight training level, but I feel it is important to note that the pilot shortage, while critical, is not singular. Just as this issue is not specific to the pilot group, the fix for it is not simple or singular, either. I know that several recommendations have been put forth to the committee and I would like to add the support of BCAC for the following four:

Number one is increased and consistent access to student loans for flight training. Currently the access to student loans for flight training is not consistent from province to province. Unlike some other provinces, loans funding in B.C. is based on the length of training rather than the cost of training. As has been presented to the committee, the cost of flight training to the level of a commercial multi-engine IFR-rated pilot will exceed $75,000, certainly more than the cost of tuition and books for most four-year university bachelor degrees. Therefore, the creation of a federally backed national student loan program that makes available a level of funding commensurate with the cost of flight training would be the single most impactful step that could be taken.

Number two is initiatives to increase recruitment and retention of flight instructors. Prior to the resource shortage, flight schools and northern air operators could count on new pilots gaining much-needed flight hours and experience by obtaining instructor ratings and working as flight instructors. They could also take positions with operators servicing northern and remote communities. Now we see our flight training units and northern air operators struggling to recruit and retain employees. Along with the development of a national student loan program, we recommend a matrix of loan forgiveness based on time spent as a flight instructor or time spent flying designated remote routes. For reference, we see similar programs in place for medical personnel working in remote communities.

Number three is support for training innovation. The regulatory requirements around aviation can be an impediment to innovation and training. We need to rethink how and who is doing our training. Aviation is an extremely complex environment, so it's interesting that flight training is one of—if not perhaps the only—system I can think of where, for the most part, we send our least experienced aviators to train our new aviators. We don't send first-year medical students to train new doctors and we don't send high school students to train the next generation of teachers, yet in the beginning of their career, that is what we do with pilots. I'm not saying it's not safe and I'm not saying we don't produce a good product, because it is and we do, but is it the best way?

ATAC, the Air Transport Association of Canada, has recommended the approved training organization model that could change, streamline and improve training, all while meeting regulatory requirements. BCAC strongly supports this initiative.

Four is support for initiatives to remove barriers to entry for women and indigenous people. Women and indigenous people continue to be under-represented in this industry. With women making up 50% of our population and indigenous youth the fastest-growing demographic in Canada, a focus on these groups could prove advantageous on many levels. We strongly encourage continued support to established outreach programs for women such as Elevate Aviation.

To energize the indigenous sector, I believe there needs to be a concerted effort to take culturally relevant programs of introduction and education out to indigenous communities. I'm the co-founder of a program we have called Give Them Wings where we will introduce indigenous youth to careers in aviation, with a focus on pilots. Our first event will be held in March at Boundary Bay Airport, where we will connect with the Musqueam, Tsawwassen and Tsleil-Waututh communities. With support, we hope to take this initiative across the province and beyond.

Today our transport has become a “taken for granted” mode of transportation in the developed world.

The social and economic impacts stemming from a pilot shortage have the potential to be annoying at best. It would be annoying if your vacation is ruined because your flight from Vancouver to Penticton or vice versa was cancelled because of a lack of a pilot and then you miss your connection to Rome and subsequently your cruise.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Do your closing lines, Ms. Bell.

12:15 p.m.

Board Chair, British Columbia Aviation Council

Heather Bell

At worst, it can be devastating, like when there is no pilot to transport your critically ill child and the unimaginable happens.

I thank the committee, and I look forward to any questions you may have and to any assistance I or my organization can lend.