Evidence of meeting #135 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was collision.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I also thank our guests for joining us.
First, I would like to mention that, all through this study, I will be thinking of all the families who have lived through tragedies that may be greater or smaller, depending on the way the crisis played out. We are conducting this study for them. We must ensure that better decisions are made in order to decrease the number of accidents year after year, although we will never be able to prevent them entirely.
My first question goes to Ms. Fox, the chair of the TSB.
In your report on the accident in 2013, your proposal to the government was to have stricter crashworthiness standards for buses. You specifically suggested the American Public Transportation Association standard.
Can you briefly tell us about the difference between Canadian standards and the American standards that you were recommending in that report?
11:25 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
There are no major differences between standards in the United States and those in Canada. However, the American Public Transportation Association has given its members some directives. For example, when they buy a bus, they have to meet certain criteria, including reinforcing the body. That is not a required standard; it is a directive from that association.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Yes, but in terms of reinforcing the bodies of the buses on Canadian roads, we have subscribed for a very long time to the compartmentalization theory. The thinking was that, in school buses, the children were better protected because the bench seat in front of them was higher and could therefore absorb the impact. However, we did not really realize that, when we were talking about that space and that theory, we were actually talking about head-on collisions. But the most catastrophic accidents are those involving lateral collisions. In those cases, the compartmentalization theory no longer holds water, in my opinion. We have seen videos showing unrestrained passengers, and, because of the force of the impact, they were flying almost weightless for a few seconds.
Is it also important to review the standard for the chassis of our buses, in the same way as we have reviewed the construction of the DOT-111, for example, because we could clearly see that their crashworthiness was inadequate?
11:30 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Is that question for me?
11:30 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Okay.
With the OC Transpo accident, we noted that there are no standards on the strength of buses when they are involved in a head-on or a lateral collision, a rollover or a crash.
In the investigations we conducted on accidents involving buses that were much stronger than other large buses, we observed that those buses fared better in accidents, even in collisions with trains, because they had reinforced sides. In that respect, there is more protection in a school bus than in a city bus.
We believe that the government should establish standards requiring all passenger buses to be reinforced, whatever their size.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you.
My next questions go to the members of the RCMP.
You have experience with accident scenes, including those where buses have been hit laterally. That is what happened with the Humboldt Broncos bus, but it also happened in other accidents. You are suggesting that, because of the force of the impact, the bus was literally cut in two.
Let us say that the impact was at the centre of the bus. The people directly at the point of impact had little chance. However, if the passengers had been wearing seat belts at the moment of the impact, would those seated at the front or the back of the bus have had a better chance of surviving or of avoiding injury?
11:30 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
I'm going to refer this question to Sergeant Entwistle, but I'd like to point out to the committee that he was actually at the scene there, so we'll just deal with it with some sensitivity.
11:30 a.m.
Sgt Trent Entwistle
I've never seen a collision where a coach or a bus was broken in half in the centre. When I spoke about that earlier, it was in regard to the car or the truck striking the side of a bus that is typically damaged more than the bus because of the size and design of the buses. Each collision is a different beast all of its own. It's really difficult to talk about the kinesiology, about how a person would move in any specific situation.
April 2nd, 2019 / 11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for being here this morning.
Superintendent, in your opening comments, you mentioned that the RCMP does not provide policing services in two provinces, Ontario and Quebec. Is there any close collaboration with those two provinces in terms of accidents of all kinds, especially those where school buses or other buses are involved?
11:30 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
There's always collaboration between police forces. We're oftentimes called to help investigate with other police forces depending on where the expertise lies. It's also possible that we would rely on another police agency or other expertise to assist us. When I say the police, RCMP, you'll see police, RCMP, obviously, in Ontario and Quebec, but not for the contracting policing services, but there is collaboration and there are opportunities for joint training and trying to maintain a national standard with respect to all training when it comes to collisions.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
According to the National Collision Database, the trend with collisions is relatively stable. On average, 2,000 buses are involved.
In your experience, what are the most common factors in collisions involving buses?
11:35 a.m.
Sgt Trent Entwistle
Inexperience of drivers tends to be a large one. When I say drivers, I don't mean the bus drivers, I mean other drivers on the road and their inattentiveness. A lot of the collisions happen at intersections. Personally, I've never investigated a bus-related collision that did not happen at an intersection, so people not paying attention and driving through a stop sign or whatnot is typically what the root cause is.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
For passenger safety in cars, wearing a seat belt is the thing to do. However, in buses, wearing a seat belt can cause problems.
What other avenues must be explored to ensure the safety of bus passengers? When safety measures are established, do we have to distinguish between city buses and highway buses?
11:35 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
I don't have an opinion on your question, one way or the other.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
In school buses, seat belts are a problem. In your experience, and from the conclusions you have been able to draw from your investigations, where should we put the priority in order to ensure the safety of children using school transportation?
Have you ever looked at studies or procedures in other provinces, in the United States, for example, in terms of seat belt use?
For example, California requires three-point seat belts on all school buses manufactured after July 1, 2005. New Jersey requires lap belts be installed on all school buses.
In your studies on this issue, do you look at what is happening in the United States?
11:35 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
We follow what's dictated by Transport Canada with respect to safety rules in buses. That's not to say we're not aware of different reports.
Again, I think we have to go back to two points.
Bus safety is not just a responsibility of bus drivers and the buses on the roads. It's everybody's obligation on the road. We're talking about other drivers, passing a school bus, the intersections and not paying attention. All the different dynamics that relate to school bus crashes I think have to be taken as a whole.
With regard to seat belts, there was a reference to Humboldt. If the accident had a different scenario and the bus had T-boned the truck, we'd be looking at a different set of dynamics and the implications of not having seat belts or having seat belts.
To conclude, we do follow what's provided or dictated by Transport Canada, adding that when we have dynamics in investigations, that information is relayed to Transport Canada so that they can make their decisions.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
If you have studies or documents that you could pass on to the committee, we would love to get them.
Thank you.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome to our witnesses today.
A few weeks ago I watched I think it was a CTV W5 investigation on school bus safety, as Mr. Iacono just referenced, not only in Canada but in the U.S. and other jurisdictions, where they talked about seat belt use in school buses in particular. Actually, it was disturbing, when you think about kids riding on school buses, particularly buses that have to travel on high-speed highways during the school day.
The focus of that investigation was on seat belts and three-point seat belts, as they've adopted in California and other jurisdictions, and so on.
This is for the Transport Canada representatives. Why haven't we reached the point where, as some people suggest, we should consider implementing laws around seat belts? Are there studies and are there past incidents to suggest one way or the other that seat belts would or would not be beneficial on school buses? Do you have studies to support that kind of opinion or contention?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Thank you, but that would be a question for Transport Canada. Transport Canada is the regulator that determines when seat belts are required. The Transportation Safety Board isn't a regulator. We don't have any authority to require people to do something or not do something. We can only speak to investigations that we've conducted involving school buses.
There were seven reported accidents between 2013 and 2018 involving all manner of buses. We conducted three full investigations, one of which was the OC Transpo-VIA Rail accident that I mentioned earlier. Then we did two investigations involving school bus-train collisions. In neither of those investigations did we make any findings or recommendations relating to seat belts, based on the dynamics of the crash and based on the lack of injuries. We can only speak to the data that we have, and that's only based on a very limited sample set, which are the few investigations that we've done.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Thank you, Madam Fox, and in fact, the safety board.
Given the different safety requirements for vehicles of different types and weight classes, as we've referenced already, to what extent, if any, do different types of buses, such as coaches, transit buses or school buses, represent unique safety issues that should be addressed individually rather than through more general regulations?
