Evidence of meeting #135 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was collision.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Regulators normally implement regulation to make sure of at least a minimum level of safety for the public in all modes of transportation. Of course, operators are always free to increase what they do, but that also comes at a cost. I don't want to speculate about what the motivation of different companies would be.
Manufacturers of buses can also increase the crashworthiness of their buses without waiting for regulations.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I have a question for the RCMP. What proactive measures are you taking with other organizations, whether they be law enforcement agencies, agencies, boards or commissions? What proactive measures are being taken in a broader sense when it comes to traffic collisions but in particular when it comes to multi-person vehicles like buses or anything of that sort?
I ask the question because there is, obviously, a need to look at.... Although a lot of emphasis is being placed on smaller vehicles with airbags, seat belts and things of that nature, when we look at buses and bigger vehicles that carry a lot of individuals, with your background with a law enforcement agency, what proactive measures are you taking with other law enforcement agencies as well as community organizations, boards, commissions and agencies?
11:50 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
I don't think we can speak to proactive if you're speaking of proactive in the sense of implementing preventative measures. Collaboration may exist, as I previously indicated, in the realm of investigations and relying on each other for expertise, but for proactive initiatives, I'm not aware of any.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Essentially, just to close this out before I pass the rest of my time to Mr. Hardie, basically the RCMP is reacting versus acting proactively.
11:50 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
That would be correct.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Badawey.
Ms. Fox, the watch-list of the TSB has been quite a valuable tool for raising issues and keeping them raised until action is taken. Is the crashworthiness of highway coaches, school buses or transit coaches on your watch-list?
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
They are not, because we don't have enough data to support escalating it to the watch-list. We have lots of safety issues that concern the board, but they can't all be on the watch-list, because the watch-list is used for those posing the greatest risks or that can do the most to advance transportation safety. We simply don't have the data to date, partly because we've only conducted a few investigations involving buses and trains.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay, thank you for that.
Sergeant Entwistle, I was unaware that you actually attended the scene of the Humboldt crash. That has to be continuously difficult for you. Understanding the severity of that crash, much of what we could talk about here might not have applied to that. That was just so severe as to make survivability extremely difficult.
Again, based on your observations as an officer who attends these scenes, yes, there are seat belts that could be applied. Are there other safety measures in a bus that we should at least be thinking about, regardless of whether or not they are practical?
11:50 a.m.
Sgt Trent Entwistle
I can't speak specifically to any types of additional safety measures that are in a bus. Typically, with passenger vehicles, we are dealing with supplemental restraint systems, such as airbag systems. I can't speak to the practicality of adding those throughout a bus.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Going back to my first comments that this is all about survivability, there is one aspect in which the RCMP or any investigating force would play a role, and that has to do with liability. Liability, of course, goes to whoever caused the crash in the first place, but there is also contributory liability if people don't take reasonable measures to protect themselves. In the case of a school bus scenario where there are seat belts available and everything is right, where would the liability lie to ensure that the kids were buckled up? Are we layering on an impossible management regime, if you will, in that situation?
11:50 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
You have raised a very good question. I think in the discussions about seat belts, it needs to be considered. In buses where there are numerous children, how would the bus driver be responsible for securing children and ensuring that they maintained their seatbelts during the entire trip?
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay. I think if I have any time left, Mr. Sikand has a question.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
That's perfect.
This is for anyone who wants to answer it. Has there ever been any discussion in regard to a governor or something that would limit the speed of the coaches, or anything that large?
Perhaps Ms. Fox could answer that.
11:55 a.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
I'm not aware of any such mechanism.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Has this ever been suggested or discussed with the RCMP?
11:55 a.m.
Supt Jamie Solesme
I know that in some provinces, governors are required on commercial vehicles. I don't know if that relates to buses or not.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Are you folks okay? Do you have any additional questions? Mr. Aubin, are you okay? All right.
Thank you very much, witnesses, for coming and sharing your thoughts and testimony with us today.
We will suspend for a moment while we connect to our video conference.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
We have with us, by video conference from Toronto, representing the Canadian Paediatric Society, Dr. Daniel Rosenfield, pediatric emergency physician.
Welcome, Dr. Rosenfield, and thank you so much for joining us. Your tie looks fabulous. We were talking about it representing all parties.
We will give you five minutes for opening remarks, which will be followed by questions from the committee.
April 2nd, 2019 / noon
Dr. Daniel Rosenfield Paediatric Emergency Physician, Canadian Paediatric Society
Thank you so much for inviting me today. As mentioned, my name is Daniel Rosenfield and I'm a pediatric emergency specialist at SickKids hospital in Toronto, where I completed training in additional trauma care and injury prevention. I'm here today representing the Canadian Paediatric Society as a member of its injury prevention committee.
One caveat to put up front is that I'm speaking specifically about children, and I have no expertise or knowledge with respect to injuries in the adult population.
The first thing I'd like to say is that school buses are actually a very safe method of transportation for Canadian children. When children are injured or killed, it is actually typically around or outside of the bus as opposed to being a passenger on it. School buses typically operate during the day on city streets at relatively low speeds. This is where children are the safest.
The majority of injuries or fatalities that do occur happen off hours on evenings and weekends or holidays and typically on major arteries or highways as opposed to on city streets. School bus safety, as you may have heard previously, is based primarily on the compartmentalization theory: the idea that each seat, and the back and front of it, is its own little compartment. The relative safety of this model is actually somewhat debatable, although most research to date suggests that it performs quite well in front-back collisions but quite poorly in side or lateral collisions and rollovers, which of course are actually more common at night, on weekends and on highways.
Seat belt use with specific reference to lap belts has a mixed history and safety profile. While they do keep the passengers in the seat, they're actually associated with significant spinal and internal organ injuries, which can result from front-back collisions, and head injuries in side and lateral collisions. We do know that if seat belts are to be used, three-point restraints that are appropriate and fitting well are the best we have to prevent injuries.
As we know, children don't come in one size and thus proper-fitting restraints are essential when they are being used.
Overall, from the average trip to and from school, I would say that current standards are likely sufficient for buses. However, when looking at longer trips and trips on the highway, it's hard to definitively make any clear recommendations. However, if we were to implement mandatory seat belts, we would have to make sure they are three-point restraints, as lap belts have just not proven to be safe enough.
It would be important to mention that other technologies that have come into existence over the past 10 years with technology and electronics have made buses potentially safer, although no good robust research has actually looked at them. These include blind-spot cameras, other detection things and other sorts of technologies that can help bus drivers see around their bus to help avoid the injuries to children that occur around them.
With respect to coach buses, there's almost no literature examining children specifically. We know that fewer children use them. Obviously, it's not a primary method to get to and from school most of the time. However, with respect to safety, the compartmentalization theory applies once again. The coach buses use the idea of a seat front and back to keep kids compartmentalized, but research on this is much more sparse in this realm. We do know that if kids were to be using coach buses more regularly, most buses would require booster seats similar to how they are used in private vehicles.
Overall, the messages I'd like to convey to the committee today are that buses represent a very safe mode of transportation for Canada's children. Most crashes occur after regular hours, on highways and on roads that are not typically travelled by the drivers. Seat belts do offer a way of improving safety, but they're only one way in a potentially larger scheme of improving safety resources and technologies.
Thinking about other potential options, better driver training, background checks, using GPS technology to monitor bus patterns and driving behaviour, and other technologies that have largely become standard in today's cars may be worth investigating as ways to potentially improve bus safety, although none of these has been robustly evaluated in any academic sense.
I thank you for your time and I welcome any questions.
Noon
Liberal
