Transport Committee on April 4th, 2019

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Could you please send the document you're referencing to the clerk for circulation to the committee?

Mr. Liepert.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I think you have touched on this a little bit. We had the head of pediatrics, I believe, from the children's hospital in Toronto here last week. His message was that there seems to be too much focus on things like seat belts in the bus versus all of the other.... The accidents they have encountered are accidents that occurred outside of the bus. When you're talking about this list that you're going to circulate, is that the focus, and would you agree with his assessment?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I didn't hear his evidence, unfortunately, but there is no doubt that an approach to ensuring.... When we talk about bus passenger safety, we have to look inside and outside the bus. That is definitely the focus of our strategy and research.

We know that vulnerable road users around a bus, which is usually the biggest vehicle on the road, are definitely at risk as well. At the same time, we know that seat belts add another layer of protection. That's why we have that stream of the task force looking at that issue holistically, with a look at seat belts but not ignoring all the other aspects related to proper lighting, mirrors, and signs that go up around school buses, to make sure that, on or off that bus, children are safest.

We know that children travelling in a personal vehicle are at risk as well. Another operational concern is that we want to make sure that we get that right, so that we're not taking buses off the road by putting in unreasonable requirements.

Those are all the different factors that will go into being able to give a proper recommendation to ministers.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Coming back to the question that was asked earlier around enforcement, the same thing would apply to enforcement outside the school bus as inside the school bus. In other words, you can have all the arms, technology and everything else that's associated with a stopped, unloading school bus, but if you have some driver who's not necessarily paying attention, it doesn't do much good.

[Kevin Brosseau]

There's no doubt that distracted driving, for instance, is a major contributor to injuries and accidents in this country. Therefore, I think most provinces have now really increased their penalties and enforcement in relation to that. It really is a holistic approach to ensuring safety across the board. The other drivers, the driver of the bus, the structural crashworthiness of the bus—all those factors are taken into consideration.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

In terms of this particular study or review that you're doing, is your mandate wide enough to make recommendations around things like distracted driving? I don't know what the exact name of the study is, but really what we're talking about is the safety of passengers on buses.

When it comes to school buses, would you be looking at making recommendations around increasing penalties for distracted driving, going through a flashing school bus light, and those sorts of things?

Is your mandate that wide? If not, should it be?

[Kevin Brosseau]

The task force and the individuals comprising that task force will look at the facts, data and evidence, and draw conclusions and recommendations from that. They will identify through evidence where the biggest risks are, to try to formulate recommendations that actually deliver meaningful results.

I have a child who rides a bus back and forth to school every day, and that's what it's about. It's about making sure that we've taken all the steps we can to ensure they're as safe as possible.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I'm finished, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, guys, for being here. I really appreciate it.

I'm going to take a bit of a different angle on this.

For the most part during this process, we've been concentrating a great deal on the buses. What I'd like to concentrate on is where the buses travel. As you know, we just put together a national trade corridors interim report, looking at trade corridors, the infrastructure, roads, rail, air and water.

In your dealings and experience, besides the buses themselves, looking at where they're travelling on roads in particular, do you find that there are investments we can make within that infrastructure to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish here with respect to bus safety?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I'll take a stab at this, and then Mike will build on it.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

By the way, the reason I'm asking the question is that I think we all recognize, especially you guys more than us, that a lot of our transportation system is quite frankly archaic, going back many decades, and hasn't been improved, whether it's a widening of the road, rail crossings and things like that.

[Kevin Brosseau]

To start, we generally try to look at vehicles. We regulate vehicles, and we regulate people driving and in vehicles. That is really our focus in Transport.

Of course, there are other things. You mentioned the corridors initiative and other mechanisms to improve the infrastructure of the country, recognizing that it's a diverse country, from the Far North to large urban areas. There's no doubt that where a bus or any vehicle travels will have a contributing impact on ensuring the safety of the passengers.

However, again, our focus has really been on the human factors and on the structural issues related to the vehicles, rather than the roads that the vehicles travel on.

Mike, do you want to build on that?

[Michael DeJong]

I would point to a couple of items.

In October 2018, the Minister of Transport and his provincial and territorial colleagues released a study on strengthening the safety of vulnerable road users. That included 57 safety measures, a number of which were around infrastructure, a number of infrastructure projects that are currently being piloted. Segregated cycling tracks would be an example.

Through the task force, Transport Canada and other partners, provinces and territories in particular, are looking at potential safety measures both on and off the school bus. That would include looking at school bus loading zones, or potentially looking at intersections. Exciting technologies are increasingly available, for example, around looking at the potential to have smart intersections, or vehicle-to-intersection or vehicle-to-infrastructure communications. This is an area that Transport Canada is looking at and monitoring the emerging technologies that could potentially have significant benefits for road safety.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Those are great comments, because we are in an age where technology can be an asset. In looking at different options and in looking at past incidents, some of those incidents are caused by the actual infrastructure and its surroundings, whether it be an intersection, a narrow road, a blind spot with trees or not enough lighting—and the list goes on. We have to expand our concentration to not only the vehicles themselves, but also the surroundings that those vehicles are travelling in. Therefore, those comments are very well taken. Thank you for that.

I'm going to give the rest of my time to Mr. Hardie.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have two minutes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's good.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I was generous.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You were very good. Thank you.

First of all, with regard to retrofitting existing buses, how often is the fleet renewed? We'll use school buses as an example, but highway coaches as well. What's the useful life of a school bus?

[Kevin Brosseau]

Mike, correct me if I misspeak, but I think about 10% of the fleet is renewed every year.

We're going to have a colleague get us the exact information, but the fleet turnover is about every 10 years.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay.

One of the issues you brought up, of course, is the design of the seats. The seats themselves must be strong enough to restrain somebody in a safety belt in the event of a crash.

Does it appear to be an extremely difficult and expensive process for somebody to retrofit an existing bus to bring the seats up to the standards that would be required to really work with a seat belt efficiently?

[Kevin Brosseau]

It's difficult to pinpoint with real precision the costs associated with retrofitting buses, but we know certainly there is a cost to school bus operators. We've heard those dialogues in school districts around the country.