Transport Committee on June 15th, 2016

[Duncan Dee]

Yes, exactly.

It's an area where there's still a tremendous amount that needs to be done. The one thing we found quite interesting is that in many of these northern jurisdictions Canada in fact is already taking either a leadership role or a co-leadership role with other northern jurisdictions to look at things such as the impact of permafrost degradation on northern transportation. This is an entire area that you could do just one report on, and you still wouldn't be able to touch on.... But as you said, to be a productive part of the Canadian economy, investment in infrastructure and transportation to these northern communities is absolutely critical.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Madam Chair, I was wondering if we would be able to have a few more minutes with this witness if any of us have questions to ask.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

How is your time, Mr. Dee? Could you stay for another 20 minutes or so?

[Duncan Dee]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We are scheduled to go to committee business.

Does the committee have other questions? We have the two of you.

Thank you very much for staying a little longer.

We go, then, to Ms. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I have a couple of questions, or maybe it's going to be one.

You mentioned that the panel was gobsmacked to hear that the priority of the stakeholders for air travel and the air industry was the air traveller fees and security charges, that it was something that each and every one of them highlighted. I'm wondering if you can tell us what your thoughts are on how those fees would be affected if a national carbon tax were implemented. What would the impact be on the aviation sector of a carbon tax? Do you see that also...?

[Duncan Dee]

We didn't look specifically at a carbon tax. The one thing we heard from industry and the air sector—and I think one of the other members pointed this out too—was the cost of travel and how the ticket prices would compare between a traveller, say, from Seattle going to northern Alaska, and a traveller from Vancouver going to northern Canada. My response was that it's hard to make that comparison, because in Canada the user-pay model that we have automatically inflates the price that's paid by a Canadian traveller, because they have to pay for every step of the way. In the U.S. it's a subsidized program. Not every element of the U.S. air transportation system is borne by the traveller. We never looked at the carbon tax and how that would impact cost. If you take a look at the existing structures that are in place, where some airlines allow for things like carbon offsets to compensate for the carbon that's generated by somebody's travel, then it does increase the cost, but at least it's voluntary.

I don't think I would be the best person to ask that question of, as we didn't look at carbon taxes in our report.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

As a follow-up to that, I believe the report notes the success that British Columbia has had in attracting more foreign carriers by reducing its aviation fuel tax. Was any negative corollary seen after Ontario raised its aviation fuel taxes?

[Duncan Dee]

That's one thing we heard very clearly, that the reduction in the provincial fuel excise tax on aviation fuel was beneficial in increasing services—to Vancouver in particular—and that the equivalent in Ontario was detrimental to the profitability and viability of many of these services. Yes, it's something we heard loudly and clearly, and we were able to verify that with a number of the researchers we consulted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, in having discussions in the past with different transportation-related industries—road, rail, air, water—something came to my attention the other day that I want to get some clarification on with respect to the rights of passengers who fly. We all know that at times we get bumped, and there are situations where we find ourselves in unfortunate circumstances. The question is, what are the rights of the passenger when they have to be bumped, or put back in line, or spend another night at the airport or somewhere else? A lot of passengers don't know what their rights are. Do you think it should be a priority of the airline industry to be more forthright and to make the rights of passengers more understandable to their passengers? Is that imminent?

[Duncan Dee]

It's an excellent question. As we looked at this issue, the one thing that was clear to us is that while we do have a lot of these issues in travel today, certainly the two large national carriers in Canada have demonstrated a higher degree of customer service in jurisdictions where they, in fact, have legislated and codified a so-called passenger bill of rights. But setting that aside, the one thing that we heard very clearly from consumers and users is the imbalance where, when things like this happen, they do not know what their rights are and are almost at the mercy of the service provider.

How imminent would it be? I think there have been quite a number of efforts in Parliament to codify these rights, and we certainly have made recommendations that would support some degree of codification of those rights. But that's just one element of it. In Europe they've take a very prescriptive approach—for example, fines and penalties—and in the U.S. they have a very elaborate model where there are groups within the U.S. Department of Transportation that handle, specifically, passenger complaints and mishaps.

I think where the panel landed on this was that we should look at a harmonization of their roles so that we wouldn't have a European system, which was much more prescriptive, versus an American system, which had a different emphasis, but a hybrid Canadian model for protecting consumers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Duncan indicated she has a question.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would just like to comment.

Thank you for mentioning carbon offsets. You're probably already aware that Andrew Ference, the former Oilers captain, actually instituted carbon offsets for the entire NHL. If hockey players are smart enough to know they should be buying offsets, shame on us if we don't yet.

My questions to you come from the brilliance of the way that you wrote this chapter. I'm sure that you realize in the review on the north that there is a potential conflict and a contradiction.

[Duncan Dee]

Absolutely.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's in the very beginning of your report where you say that it's very important.... Well, first of all, you say that transportation development will be an important “development catalyst” for the north, but it's also critical that decisions in the north “be informed by northern realities and...in partnership with Northerners.”

The report talks about northern corridors, which in many ways, for the most part, may be driven by the resource sector or southern interests—

[Duncan Dee]

Right.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

—to get products either out of the north to the south, or to the Arctic Ocean. But on the other hand, those may not be the priorities of northerners who may simply want a mechanism to visit family in the south, or go to university, or go to a hospital. How do you see those two fitting together? What kind of process would you recommend to the government as necessary to make sure that the northern priorities are given priority?

[Duncan Dee]

That is an entire meeting unto itself, given the fact that it's so complex.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We're going to have a lot of meetings.

[Duncan Dee]

I think you've hit this issue full square, and it's something that we encountered. I'm not an expert in this, but the only piece of advice, based on what we saw, is that none of these so-called nation-building projects will work without, from the very absolute conception stage, involving the local communities. In large part, up north, they're indigenous communities. Without their involvement from the absolute get-go, these are not going to get anywhere.

I certainly haven't cracked the code on how to design a process that would ensure the success of these potential projects, but the only piece of advice I would have is that for any proponent or government looking at these nation-building projects—these corridors aimed at economic development and extracting resources—the fundamental number one, basic building block is local input, consultation, and buy-in. Without those three local elements, I don't think any of these projects will ever get off the ground—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

How about at the front-end they decide first what should be a priority investment of the federal dollars?

[Duncan Dee]

Absolutely. Those projects were identified as a result of local input from local representatives, that indigenous communities that were there. This is not a permanent finite list, because these could change. You're absolutely right: they need to be the ones identifying what projects they feel are worthy.