Transport Committee on Nov. 24th, 2016

[Kerry Moher]

I don't think it would be at point of sale. I think there would be a compliance opportunity. The training right now, the testing for the operator's certificate, the part 107 of the FAA is extremely rigorous. You could not take it at a Best Buy and do very well. I think we have to look at the reciprocity issue. We want our commercial operator's certificate to match that program. Even a pilot would need some fairly significant online training. I think they would do it online at their own convenience, and need to keep it with them.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That's perfect, and I think that's my time, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Berthold, you have five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for your very enlightening testimony.

The more we hear from witnesses during this study on drones, the more we learn about them and the more we realize that there is an extraordinary potential for the Canadian economy. Your desire to have some regulatory certainty is important. We must not develop a phobia towards this new technology, as we heard in the first meeting. We must not do with drones what was done with Uber, that is, wait until it is too late before acting and pitting industries against each other.

So thank you for your very interesting testimony.

We are getting quality witnesses and we have received a request from airport representatives to appear before us. We also raised the possibility of inviting people from the municipal world. It might be helpful to allocate an additional day to the study on drones in order to really explore the matter, and so that the committee can quickly report to the government. We must play our role as advisors with these regulations. I am making that request to all my colleagues. We are very open to the idea of adding another session.

The Di Bernadettos are both asking for regulation. At the same time, you say that your main obstacle is regulation. Can you tell me exactly what the industry needs to function properly, with a guarantee of safety? How do you explain that paradox in a few words? You are saying that regulation harms you and, at the same time, you say that you need it.

Either of you can answer.

[Tony Di Benedetto]

We look at this as a commercial operation. We look at how Air Canada flies and the regulatory requirements they undergo. It's all about safety. Our platform is built around safety first. We are the operator. We wish to be the operator when that time comes. We oversee a fleet of drones executing a service. Our technology, our back-end systems software integrates back to Transport Canada, NAV Canada. All these different technologies that we heard about earlier, the transponders, it's a catalyst to putting it all together to create a proper framework. Regulations are lacking today on how you immobilize this technology. The consumer world is a different beast in itself because the accountability aspect is very limited. Who's responsible: the Best Buy who sold the drone, or the individual flying it? There's a whole other level of complexity there. From our perspective, from a commercial standpoint where these applications become key economic drivers for Canada, you need to partner with the right operators who understand what it is. It's a serious business. People's lives are at risk, and you need to address that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Do you have any additional comments? You still have a minute and a half.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Fine.

My next question goes to Mr. Moffat. He was the visionary, because he established what now constitutes the base.

You are asking for the establishment of a centre for drone training and certification. By that, do you mean that all drone owners should be trained in Alma? If not, could recreational users do an online training course, as Mr. Moher proposed?

[Marc Moffatt]

Training involves a number of aspects, depending on whether the use is recreational or professional. The prequalification centre, where the infrastructure is, focuses on professional use. We want to build a little village to validate systems. The RCMP, the Sûreté du Québec and the Canadian Coast Guard are all currently making acquisitions, but those organizations always have to deal with the vendors. So we want to propose systems. We are taking steps so that we can work with the National Research Council Canada to test those systems in an impartial manner and integrate them into Canadian airspace.

I can give you a very simple example. We want to reproduce what exists in Blainville, just north of Montreal. Transport Canada has a centre that tests all motor vehicles in Canada. Our interest is in developing our facilities to test systems. In Blainville, they do everything that involves motor vehicles; we want to do everything that involves drones.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold. Your time is up now.

Monsieur Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Distinguished guests, my thanks to you for joining us and for upgrading my knowledge, which, I confess, was somewhat limited. That knowledge comes to me via the pictures you often see on Facebook. They are truly magnificent in terms of promoting tourism, but a little disastrous when you see drones crashing to earth.

I would like to understand how airspace is shared. We know that, as soon as a conventional aircraft takes off, its route is already set. We know exactly where it will go and all risks of collision are eliminated. However, I get the impression that drones do not have to follow rules like that. Perhaps that is the wrong impression. It may just be that recreational use is not subject to those rules whereas professional uses are.

Could one of you enlighten me as to how airspace is shared among drones and aircraft?

[Marc Moffatt]

In the short term, restricted zones are established around the airport in Alma. These are closed so that systems and procedures can be developed. Drones will have to find a way to share the airspace; it is not up to aircraft to get out of their way. So our drones have to be properly equipped. We provide the spaces in which to develop the integrated systems.

In the short term, we operate under special flight operations certificates. That does not sound very special, but once a company has a certificate, it can operate within a very defined perimeter approved by Transport Canada.

In the future, we will also be looking to allow flight beyond visual line of sight. This would mean deploying systems all through Canadian airspace and equipping drones. There are vast areas in Canada, whether for pipelines, forestry or mining. Those drones have to be equipped. Flight beyond visual line of sight would be a real advance.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

As I understand it, your proposal would sit relatively well with companies operating drones professionally, but not with all the recreational pilots buying vehicles that are less safe. But most incidents happen when the use is recreational, not professional. Would that be regulated by your centre or not?

[Marc Moffatt]

Not necessarily, because the regulations for recreational use and professional use are not exactly the same. I am not talking about little systems like DJI's Inspire drone. We see a little more flexibility with recreational use. However, the people using the systems are not sufficiently aware of the dangers and that is where the short-term problem lies. Providing training online, as has been proposed, is an excellent idea. We have to work at educating people. That kind of vehicle would typically be operating within sight.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Moher, you talk about education a lot and that appeals to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Make it a short question, please.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

How will online training be able to reach the customers, given that they are being told that they will know how to operate the vehicle in five minutes and given that they think they are competent even though they are not?

[Kerry Moher]

I think one of the things that we would love to be able to do is give people a great foundation. When we implemented the pleasure craft operator card program with Transport Canada back in the mid to late 1990s, there were a lot of people who had very little experience operating boats and plenty who had many years of experience.

In fact, we still get a lot of very experienced operators going through the program initially kicking and screaming, saying there can't possibly be something new that they could learn from this training program, and ultimately coming out at the other end feeling much better about not only their own skill set but certainly that of those around them.

We're trying to give a foundation to the general public so that when you see even a recreational drone operator, as a Canadian citizen you'll know that they have a base level of training. When I take my drone into the local high school and to a local park, people come out of the woodwork. There's just a lot of misconceptions. It's unclear what, if any, training I may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We move now to Ms. Block.

No? Okay.

Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

No problem.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will continue along the same lines.

We have all tried to fly one of those cheap little drones that you can buy in stores, at least those of us with children have. We have all flown them into walls and, basically, crashed the darned thing, despite all the protection systems. Those are the drones that Canadians are currently familiar with, I feel.

The potential for drones to deliver parcels to people's doors clearly raises safety issues. I will come back to that. At that point, municipal bylaws are an issue too.

A number of people have a stake in the commercial use of drones. Will they fly in the evening, at night, in the morning, for example? People are seriously afraid of drones being used.

We have not talked about this a lot, but we have to give some thought to the acceptability of drones, especially commercial drones, as opposed to the drones we use at home like I do; the ones we try to fly and end up smashing a flower pot or some similar object, as I mentioned.

Where are we with commercial use? Can either of the Mr. Di Benedettos tell us whether your company has dealt with authorities other than Transport Canada?

[Tony Di Benedetto]

We've been speaking to a variety of different government bodies, federal, provincial, and municipal. One of our partners is the City of Vaughan. They're the first city in Canada and I believe North America to be looking at executing a drone pilot program as part of their smart city initiative.

We looked at this. There's this huge stigma. You have to listen to all the different stakeholders, including the residents and all levels of government. Our approach is let us learn to crawl together. Forget about walking. Let's learn how to crawl. Then we walk and then we run. But let us start in the backyard. Let us start in Canada's north where there are wide open spaces, where we're far away from people, and there are a lot of trees and there's an immediate impact.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Let me stop you there.

Previous witnesses have told us that Canada is beginning to fall behind.

Are countries that have no northern regions going to wait until we have conducted tests in the north before starting a drone industry?

That is what concerns me. We feel that things are coming to a boil at the moment and I certainly do not want that economic boom to pass Canada by and for us to be last to profit from it. We can talk about the north, but it is also a challenge for municipalities to sit everyone down at the same table and come up with fair regulations.

[Tony Di Benedetto]

Correct. Globally, it's an exploding space. You have countries such as Australia, Ukraine, the U.K. The FAA in the U.S.A. issued their first licence approximately a month ago.

Everyone's treading very cautiously in this paradigm shift that is happening in our skies. The sensible approach is to start slowly and gradually learn, involve all stakeholders in this process, and then move it closer over time. This is the way we see the world working from a commercial perspective.

We're tweaking. We're testing on a daily basis with our researchers and our university partners. Every day we're learning something new. By starting in the backyard, we'll bring Canada to the forefront.

We'll make this country become a leader in this space, and then everyone will start adopting this. That's the right way of doing it. From a commercial perspective, that makes a lot of sense.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Moffat, what is your opinion about that?

[Marc Moffatt]

There are ways to include drones. Take France as an example, where they have beyond visual line of sight flying. Their airspace is structured differently. The country is in charge of everything 1,000 feet and below. Above 1,000 feet, Europe is in charge and things work differently. It is a risk management issue. France has taken the measures it needs to fly beyond visual line of sight.

For example, France has a major problem with copper being stolen from the railway systems of their high-speed trains. First, they used helicopters to try and find the thieves. They ended up using a drone, which makes almost no noise and which has a range of 10 kilometres. A drone weighs two kilograms or less. Risk management in the airspace is working very well. Those are concrete examples.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So they started outside urban areas, where drone use is less visible. That allowed them to practice and become proficient.