Transport Committee on Nov. 29th, 2016

[Aaron McCrorie]

Working from memory, in the spring of 2015 we came out with what we call a “notice of proposed amendment” that explained to Canadians what possible rules would look like. We got a lot of feedback on that NPA. We're working through that feedback now and developing some regulatory proposals that we hope to publish in Canada Gazette, part 1, in 2017. They cover a whole range of operating requirements, such as the requirement for a pilot to demonstrate knowledge, requirements for registration and marking, and operating rules for how and when you can operate.

What we're really trying to do is take a risk-based approach, so that if you're operating in a more complex environment with a heavier UAV, then you're going to have to meet more stringent regulatory requirements. If you're operating in a lower-risk environment, for example in rural Saskatchewan, then you'd have a lower level of operating rules and requirements that you may need to meet, but you would still have to meet some requirements.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

As a follow-up to that observation you've just made, do you have the provinces, the territories, and law enforcement at the table as you're pulling all this together?

[Aaron McCrorie]

We bring a whole variety of stakeholders to the table, as many as we can, when we develop our regulatory packages through our regulatory process. We are, through forums such as federal and provincial forums and bilateral relationships, engaging those other agencies as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Sikand.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

First to Transport Canada, the FAA in the United States has an app called, “B4UFLY”. I was wondering if we're going to come out with something similar to that.

It's an app that allows you to know whether you're near an aerodrome or whether you can fly safely. I understand that the pilots have to have theory, but it's a lot easier if they can just quickly check on that.

[Aaron McCrorie]

We don't have anything right now that's comparable, but we have been looking at sharing that kind of information with the pilots.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

To the RCMP, for the public there are drones that are available that have an eight-hour flight time, a 100-kilometre range, and a payload of five kilograms. Ideally, for safety, I'd like those to have geofences and transponders, and for law enforcement to have drones that could intercept something like that. Could you speak to this?

[Staff Sergeant David Domoney, Staff Sergeant, National Traffic Services , Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good morning. My name is Staff Sergeant Dave Domoney. I'm with CAP, contract and aboriginal policing, as well. I run the UAV program for the RCMP.

In answer to the question, when we deal with transponders on aircraft, NAV Canada would usually answer that question, just because the power of a transponder may not be adequate to show up on an airport screen. With aircraft that travel that distance, we're continually working with manufacturers and Transport Canada to see what kind of aircraft are out there and see how we can mitigate that.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Iacono is next.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question is for a Transport Canada representative.

What resources would Transport Canada need to require the registration of all drones and to require all Canadian operators of those devices to take training, as the Air Canada Pilots Association is calling for? Why are the users of commercial drones and recreational drones treated differently under the regulations?

[Laureen Kinney]

Those are two good questions.

On the first question, we're still in the process of developing for public comment the framework that we would propose for regulations for part I of the Canada Gazette. Should we believe there is a safety case, it would require the registration of pilots, a higher level of training, and so on, as was outlined. Until we have framed that completely and have a good sense of where the regulations will end up, we haven't costed out the details of implementing that, but we are working on it. We are developing that. There will certainly be some costs for Transport Canada in managing that project, but we don't have those details yet.

The second question, in terms of commercial versus recreational use, is a really fascinating question. I won't go on forever, but the history of our transportation mode regulations have typically divided recreational and commercial users, because the risks were typically higher for the public. To meet the expectations of safety from the public when hiring a carrier or some kind of transportation entity, we have expected a higher level of safety.

There has been a long history of dividing the regulations that way. What you'll see in the current regulations, in a very small way, is that division. When we started developing the UAV regulations, we said, “That doesn't make sense.” The issue is identifying the risks of these types of operations and the risks of the particular sizes of equipment. We decided to stop that approach, other than recognizing that the modelling association has a process in place that's very strong.

Generally, let's talk about what the risks and the mitigations are. Whoever you are, it depends on how you operate, where you operate, and the complexity of the environment you operate in. That's how we would divide the proposed new regulations. That's the approach we're taking.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Sergeant Dave Domoney.

Do you have policies and practices regarding the personal information gathered by UAVs?

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

There really isn't any collection of personal information with drones. If drones are used in any particular investigative file, the information, the video, ends up on the file itself. It would be held the same way any other information is held within the RCMP, complying with all regulations. There's nothing personal about it, except that we might capture something during an accident reconstruction.

As I've said, the area is fenced off. For major crime scene reconstruction, the area is fenced off. Search and rescue is typically in a wooded area open to the public. I guess that the most you would infringe on privacy would be in those extreme circumstances where we have the potential for loss of human life. Then again, we are out in an open area. A drone is not something easy to hide. It's not really covert. There wouldn't typically be anything very personal about it, but it is all held in the file and dealt with in the same way that the RCMP deals with any other private information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us this morning.

Since the start of our study on drones, we have talked about the positive aspects of drones, such as economic growth and new opportunities, albeit with some concern about safety and the protection of privacy.

My first questions are for the RCMP representative.

It could be the science fiction film fan in me that makes me ask this question. In your presentation, you talked about the positive aspects of drones, such as reconstructing the scene of an accident, searching for individuals, or monitoring a hostage-taking.

I would like to hear the negative aspects, the other side of the coin. Do you have to fight a new kind of crime with the advent of drones favouring the contraband market? If not, is there the potential for attacks owing to the proliferation of drones? What measures have you developed to deal with this new reality, if it indeed exists?

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

I'll start the response to that question, and I'll ask Dave to finish off, maybe, and cover off anything I haven't.

The typical drones that we're encountering right now are the ones that have 30-minute flight times, the off-the-shelf kind. Although some have a greater payload and the technology is changing fast and distance is increasing with the fixed-wing drones, the majority are the 30-minute hobby craft. They're still a concern for us, obviously, in those kinds of protected areas where we are looking after the security of a VIP, for example. We are working extensively on countermeasures with our partners and the industry. Dave has participated in a number of research trials, also with DRDC, Defence and Research Development Canada, in order for us to look at ways to counteract any of those situations where they might pose a threat to a protected person.

With smuggling, as you mentioned, we're more than likely to see that as distances increase with fixed-wing drones. Our border with the U.S. is fairly open. I worked for many years in British Columbia, where you could just walk across the border. The need to fly a drone across wasn't terribly necessary. You could just, in the middle of the night, walk across. It's wide open. There are no fences.

We are seriously engaged in all things related to countermeasures when it comes to drones. Technology is changing fast.

I don't know if Dave wants to add anything to that.

[S/Sgt David Domoney]

I agree with those comments.

The only other thing I would like to point out is that when you deal with countermeasures, the technology in countermeasures is changing daily. In the RCMP, we have done a lot of testing with it. What we're finding is that there's no one system that is a detection, tracking, able-to-mitigate, all-in-one turnkey system. Some companies' systems are good at detection, some are good at tracking, and some are good at mitigating the threat.

With that technology, we just have to continue to monitor it, and hopefully we'll soon have something that will be able to meet that entire situation.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you for that first part of the answer.

My next question will be more specific.

Has there been an increase in crime in recent years related to the use of this technology?

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

For us, when we see these sorts of things, they're either intrusions into protected airspace around the airport—those are the kinds of things you hear of in the news—or you might get complaints from the public that there's a drone flying over their backyard or into what you would call their private space. Our method of dealing with those is by using things like the mischief section of the Criminal Code. If it is in an area where we're protecting somebody, obviously we look for the operator of the drone—with a normal 30-minute flight time, they're usually not too far away—and then we order them to bring it down. Failure to do so would be considered obstruction.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have a brief question for the Transport Canada representatives.

Drones are not included in the Transportation Safety Board of Canada's watch list. This list sets out the various security issues that pose problems or risks. How does the department view the risks related to drones since they are not included in the Transport Canada watch list?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Thank you for the question.

I think you

referred to the Transportation Safety Board watchlist. It's based on their review of accidents and the reports they have done over the last several years. On that basis, they've developed their watchlist, which has four different items.

Within Transport Canada civil aviation, we've also taken a proactive step of identifying what we consider our four top risks from an aviation safety point of view. To a certain extent it mirrors what the Transportation Safety Board has said, but it somewhat differs. Our top risk is unmanned air vehicles. We've identified that as one of our top safety risks. Two others are approach and landing accidents and loss of control in flight, and the fourth risk area is human factors, which includes factors like fatigue and pilot fitness to fly.

From a Transport Canada perspective versus the Transportation Safety Board, we feel UAVs are one our top safety risks, and that's why we put a lot of effort into addressing them from a regulatory point of view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The first question with respect to law enforcement agencies, I guess, is about the RCMP. Are law enforcement agencies aware of their current obligations with respect to the protection of privacy and security? Have any policies and practices been developed regarding the UAVs?

The second part of that question is whether there is a move afoot by law enforcement agencies to attach future recommendations to public safety, and, of course, security.

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

In reference to privacy, I believe there were 775 incidents for which we used drones, UAVs, in 2014, which was the last time we ran the stats before coming down. The majority of that time was for accident reconstruction. Again, a fenced-off area—