Evidence of meeting #37 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
We have a lot on our plate, and we want to include that too.
Mr. Aubin, the floor is yours.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
I am sorry for that interruption, Mr. Schwartz.
I would like to get some more information. From a little research I did, incorporating a community benefit requirement into the infrastructure contracts mechanism could be impossible because of the terms of the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Chapter 15 of the TPP does not specify whether tender criteria would be a barrier to trade. If that is the case, the bill could expose Canada to trade challenges.
I am asking for your opinion. How do you see this bill, which asks whether there are community benefits, when we have to comply with an international agreement we have signed?
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
To begin with, I would like to clarify something.
Bill C-227 requires that in our requests for proposals, information about community benefits be provided. It is important to note that it is not talking about including a community benefits requirement. That is not a mandatory criterion for deciding whom to award the contract to. It is simply about providing information on community benefits. I want to be sure that the members of the committee understand that that is not part of the evaluation for deciding whom a contract will be given to.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
My other question concerns the end of the process. Assume that all bidders meet the criteria for awarding the contract and the best one has been chosen, obviously, the one that will produce the most community benefits, and, at the end of the process, you realize that all or part of the community benefits promised will not materialize. What would happen?
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
That is a good question. It goes back somewhat to your colleague's comments.
The goal of assembling this information and doing an analysis, whether it is after one year or two years, is to determine whether there have, in fact, been the community benefits promised. Otherwise, based on the assessments provided by the suppliers, other measures might be considered.
At the moment, we have good relations with the construction industry. I know that Mr. Atkinson has appeared before this committee. Earlier this week, my colleagues and I met with him. We work closely with these people. I think they agree on the objectives of this bill.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Yes, we have heard them.
Obviously, we all hope for the best. In the beginning, it is easy, but when you get to the end, it is something else.
You said that other measures might be taken. Allow me to say that your answer is a bit vague. For example, could financial penalties be applied? Is that the only measure that could be taken? Can you name any others?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
At the moment, it will not be possible to apply financial penalties, because community benefits are not included in the criteria for evaluating bidders on a contract.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Can you give me an example of another measures that could be used to make up for a promise that was not kept on the ground?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
Not at the moment. I am not able to suggest other measures.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
At this point, if Bill C-227 were to pass, how would the department adapt its processes to accommodate the intent and the reality of this new legislation?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
We would have, from an implementation perspective, two streams. Over the coming months department officials would be developing criteria for the application for consideration by the minister as to what extent and to which contracts, particular solicitations, this would apply.
We do a number of contracts, thousands of contracts. I'll use this example. For small construction and repair contracts, for example like a $150 plumbing job, I would suggest—and while it would be the decision of the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada to decide—that we would wish to probably avoid asking this for small, low-dollar value procurements.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Actually what you're doing is starting the process as a first step to report to the minister how this is going to roll out.
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
Proposals for the application criteria we would apply to this, too.
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
For example, the dollar value or threshold—
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
I'm sorry?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
If this bill were to go forward, we're already starting to develop some criteria. Actually I would be interested in hearing from the committee members if there are certain types of projects they feel would benefit from having this apply to them.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
That's what I'm getting at, Mr. Schwartz. Yes, we have Bill C-227 in front of us, and it is essentially a good first step, but what I'm getting at now is the second, the third, and the fourth step as this matures and as it accrues over time.
What I mean by that is that, in my opinion—and I'm sure we share this opinion around this horseshoe—this will in fact add value to the process. I think for the most part it can be applied to not just the federal level but it can be a discipline when monies are flowing from the federal level to municipalities, and quite frankly, to the provinces.
Second to that, and, again, moving down the road.... Coming from the municipal level as a former mayor, like my colleague opposite, we had been doing this for quite some time. What it did was, before the actual process was bid, it was actually part of a matrix and it was part of a waiting process on that matrix, and therefore, part of the ultimate bidding award because of the value-add that can be attached to it.
Therefore, when you're now moving forward with meeting a hopefully aggressive timeline with respect to Bill C-227, do you see that discussion happening in the future as well?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
On the challenges, I can only speak on behalf of PSPC, with respect to its scope and application. As soon as the bill is passed, we would be applying it to all PSPC contracts that fall within this scope. With respect to including it as rated criteria or mandatory criteria, unfortunately, the current structure of our trade agreements prohibits us from including it as rated criteria.
In discussions with industry, we haven't discussed Bill C-227, but we've discussed a number of things—prompt payment, good-quality design documents, a host of things—and I made reference to that collaborative relationship that we have with CCA, or the NTCCC, which is another organization. I think this legislation has the opportunity to clearly signal government intent, and that signalling, I think, could potentially cascade down.
December 1st, 2016 / 9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
I want to dig a bit deeper here because Bill C-227, I think, is a wonderful first step. I think it's a good direction to take but I think we all agree around the table, from the past discussion that we've had, that there's a second, there's a third, and there's a fourth step attached to this, especially as it relates to those performance measures with respect to the bidding process and getting added value. Again, the municipalities do it all the time. There are millions of dollars that can be realized here, when bidding is happening, with respect to the added-value products that they add into their bids.
With that, I want to go to Mr. Hardie's earlier question. How then, after the fact, do you measure that performance? When Bill C-227 is put in place, how is the federal government now going to measure that performance based on what this bill actually defines as part of the overall process?
9:15 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
The bill places an obligation on the minister to table a report every year, so we'll be collecting all that information. In a very conceptual model, company ABC wins a contract. They have an obligation to submit to us what community benefits they're going to produce during the course of that contract—