Transport Committee on April 11th, 2017

[Laureen Kinney]

Minister Garneau has made some announcements in that regard, and in his November 3 speech he talked about the government's interest in improving the air travel experience in this area. There were some things, as well, in budget 2017, but those are still to be rolled out in the next little while. So I would defer that to another point in time.

Certainly it is an area of interest and involvement. There is work continuously under way on how to balance the investments required to manage what is very much a peak and off-peak type of scenario. It is a tricky one to manage.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

As an aviation observer and enthusiast, I can tell you that it certainly hinders growth. It doesn't make anyone want to fly when they see that kind of thing going on. Anyone's demeanour would become less than pleasant if they had to deal with all that.

I would like to switch gears and talk about seaplanes. Transport Canada recently announced that, going forward, seaplane pilots and passengers would have to wear life belts. According to our information, 51 of the 54 organizations consulted are opposed to the change, and Canada would be the only country to have such a requirement.

As far as the requirement goes, do you plan to be more lenient with some companies, such as those operating out west, on the Pacific coast, whose business depends on seaplanes?

[Laureen Kinney]

That is definitely an important area of discussion and the purpose of our publication in the Gazette, part I, the regulations that we were proposing. There has been very significant feedback from that. In fact, this is a continuation of a discussion that has gone on for the last few years since the Transportation Safety Board's recommendation.

It is a difficult area to manage because there are conflicting safety concerns, and there certainly are operational issues that the industry has raised. We have had very thorough and very intensive feedback through that Gazette, part I, public consultation process and we're in the process of considering that. We are looking at what options we can bring forward for the Gazette, part II. We hope to do that in the very near future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions.

By the way, we do look forward to Minister Garneau coming forward with the passenger bill of rights. For the most part, especially after what we saw yesterday and to Mr. Deltell's comments, I think we'll see a lot of it alleviated with that being put in place.

At the last meeting, we heard from a witness that we're lucky to fly without crashing. I think that was his comment. Today we hear how safe our airways are, which I tend to believe, but I have to get some clarification on that. It was a comment made and it wasn't made lightly. Obviously, if people were watching—and I believe it was televised—it can really stir up a lot of emotions.

Again, with your being here today and, of course, being charged with that responsibility, could you give us some clarification on what the reality is?

[Laureen Kinney]

As I introduced at the beginning of our discussion, the safety record speaks for itself. There has been a significant increase in air travel in Canada. The rate of accidents has continued to decrease, and the numbers of accidents are decreasing.

As you go through each individual component of the industry, some are higher risk than others, so there's some variation within that. However, in general, it is absolutely evident that the rates of accidents are decreasing.

That doesn't say it's zero-risk, and that doesn't say it is as safe as we would like it to be. We need to continue to work to make it safer and continue to find ways to bring the safety higher and the accident rate lower. However, at this point in time, I think the statistics that we have tabled and the information that we've shown have demonstrated the safety of the system. Again, in any one particular case, that doesn't mean there will be no risk.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

How do we compare with other countries?

[Laureen Kinney]

We try to make these comparisons, but Madam Chair, it is a very difficult question. Everybody has different categories of industry. I don't know if we've really got a good comparison.

We are very good, in comparison with the U.S., in the way that we look at the comparisons of the statistics, but it's less easy to demonstrate that clearly. It's also something to look at in terms of the types of aircraft operations that are flown. If you're looking at Europe, for example, where you have very dense countries with very little remote services provided, obviously there is some level.... When you look at different types of operations, there are different risks in different areas like that.

I know that's not a very satisfactory answer. But I would say that, for the comparable areas, we compare very well. We compare better or are equivalent in comparable areas.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Great. It's an honest answer, and I appreciate that.

Before I hand it over to Mr. Fraser, I again want to make the comment that we look forward to a passenger bill of rights being brought forward. When we watch the news and see incidents like what happened yesterday, as well as the congestion that we have in some airports, once again I have to commend Minister Garneau highly for dealing with that issue. Hopefully, we'll see the results of that very soon.

I'm going to pass it on to Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lachance, we haven't had much of an opportunity to question you today. You spoke about the rapid development of technology within Nav Canada.

One of the priorities for me and for the government, as I see in budget 2017, is investing in skills training. I think the industry a decade from now will be very different from what it is today because of the rapid development of technology. How can we target our investment in skills training to ensure we're enhancing safety at the same time?

[Larry Lachance]

I believe, in the case of Nav Canada, that when it comes to training in the required skills to perform the activities we are responsible for, it's really looking at improving the simulation environment, improving the capability of multi-tasking, and really focusing on the priority-setting, from an educational perspective.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm going to change gears a bit. We have a little less than two minutes to go.

Ms. Kinney, in any regulatory scheme where you're trying to improve safety, you have to have faith that the people who report an incident aren't going to suffer some kind of a reprisal. Are there protections within Transport Canada now for whistle-blowers to ensure that if they witness non-compliance, they have an incentive to report it or, at the very least, don't have a disincentive to reporting it.

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, I will split my answer into two sections.

In terms of federal employees, there are existing provisions under the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner and a whole regime around the disclosing of wrongdoing. That's an active area that has continued to work. There are officials appointed to address those issues. This is something that is in place.

In terms of federally regulated work areas—in aviation, for example—what is usually used there is the public reporting system that we have. Anyone who has flown in an aircraft, or a pilot, or an employee can provide us with information. They can also provide us with direct information. Transport Canada, in all of our modes, will take action and look into and investigate those areas. We will do that in a way that protects the individual. However, of course, in some cases that becomes more complex. When you're looking at a very specific situation, it becomes a little bit more obvious as to what led to the discussion. But there is an active effort when we get any kind of a report.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.

We've heard from a number of union representatives on the issue of fatigue management. The standards in the U.S. are different from those in Canada, which were put in place by Transport Canada. According to studies, U.S. standards set out rest periods, such as those requiring pilots to wait a certain amount of time before flying. Canada's standards, however, are less stringent.

The data provided to the committee were recognized by the International Civil Aviation Organization. Is there a reason why Canada's standards differ from those in the U.S.?

[Laureen Kinney]

I'll turn to my colleagues to get into more detail, but the quick answer is that the International Civil Aviation Organization standard changed. Transport Canada is in the process of implementing those requirements, and the new regulations will do that. But at this point in time, we're a little bit out of step. That is the key answer.

[Aaron McCrorie]

ICAO requires us to develop fatigue regulations based on the latest science. That's exactly what we're doing. We're looking at publishing them in the Canada Gazette, part I. In some respects we'll probably exceed U.S. requirements when we do so. For example, we'll include all cargo operations, which are not included in the U.S. context today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

I have one quick question. Recommendation A16-10 calls for Transport Canada to make SMSs mandatory for all carriers. Do you have a plan to make SMSs mandatory for 703-type carriers, and when?

[Laureen Kinney]

Madam Chair, the recommendation is very broad; it has impacts upon a number of areas of operation in both aviation and other modes as well—rail and marine. At this point Transport Canada is still considering the feasibility of going forward with particular components of the aviation industry, whether it be in the 703 segment or in some other areas first, or in which order, looking at the safety record and at the implementation complexity and not just the cost, although cost to industry and the comparable safety benefit is a part of our regulatory process.

More importantly, what does it mean for the way they operate, and what are the ways in which we can try to develop a “safety management system lite”, if you will, that could be effective but still would not be an excessive burden on a company that might not be able to improve its safety at the end of this process if we move too quickly in that regard?

As well, I think we need to look at whether this is the best investment in safety improvement in those modes or in those particular sub-sectors, when we have other options that we potentially may want to move ahead.

We haven't disagreed with this; we think it is a worthwhile area to look at. It is something that we're very interested in doing, but we need to do it well, if we do it, and need to be sure not only that the industry can manage but also that Transport Canada can oversee it properly and implement such a system.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

So that I understand this, are you saying that you're not sure that a safety management system is the best way to go for a carrier within the 703 sector?

[Laureen Kinney]

Yes, that is still part of our analysis at this point, Madam Chair, looking at what are the best things we could do. In practical terms or in terms of actual implementation, what would be the impact of that, in terms of the time we would have to spend in building up those skills and of building up the expectations in the industry, both from our perspective and from the industry's side?

We're still looking at that issue, and we have a series of other very important safety issues that we're putting our priority on right at this moment. That is an example of a recommendation that, while we don't disagree with it, we feel it is something that we need to move fairly carefully on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 35 seconds.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

In response to that, from conversations with folks we've been meeting with it would appear that the highest incidence of accidents occurs within this 703 sector. While I understand perhaps the need to go slowly, what is happening in the interim to ensure that this sector is functioning safely?