Evidence of meeting #58 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Laureen Kinney  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Commissioner Joe Oliver  Assistant Commissioner, Technical Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Neil Parry  Vice-President, Service Delivery, Canadian Air Transport Security Authority
Brian Rumig  Assistant Director, Operations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Daniel-Robert Gooch  President, Canadian Airports Council
Jennifer Sullivan  Director, Corporate Safety and Security, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, and Chair of the Security Committee, Canadian Airports Council
Marie-France Paquet  Director General, Intermodal Surface, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport

12:30 p.m.

Assistant Director, Operations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Brian Rumig

The other thing I would add to it is that, in the aftermath of the media reporting, our service obviously took note of the potential serious implications of it, and we proactively then rescreened the names and individuals who had previously been identified to us by Transport Canada, all 80,000, if you will. We put that through another vetting process just to make sure we were not missing something, and we're happy to say that it was a positive result.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

I'd like to get the opinion of all the organizations present here today on the measures presently in place to prevent employees with somewhat radicalized intentions from having access to secure areas of the airport. Is it sufficient? According to you, what improvements should be brought forward and why? What actions should we be taking right away?

12:30 p.m.

A/Commr Joe Oliver

If information comes to our attention that raises concerns particularly with the policing community about an individual's potentially becoming radicalized, I'm reassured, with the process we have in place—the ability for us to share that information with Transport Canada, and their ability to initiate in a timely manner a review for cause of that individual's security clearance—that those measures will allow a timely assessment to be made.

12:30 p.m.

Assistant Director, Operations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Brian Rumig

Let me add to that. First of all I agree with Assistant Commissioner Oliver that we're very mature in this space and in the sharing of information. Also, the timeliness of that sharing of information has been tested and proven efficient.

Moving forward, one thing we at CSIS are very challenged by is the ability of other departments, the RCMP included, to use our information in an adjudicative process. As you can imagine, the information we deal in is usually of a classified nature. Getting it into a prosecutorial system or an adjudicative system is very troubling in this country. It's something successive governments have tried to deal with and have tried to bring measures for. In fact, the national security consultations of this past year have identified this as an issue as well. The government today is looking to try to come up with a mechanism to address it.

However, going back to the question—

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Rumig, could you possibly answer some of that to our next member, so that we can keep on the list?

12:30 p.m.

Assistant Director, Operations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Brian Rumig

I'd be happy to.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

It was important information. I'm reluctant to have to cut you off there.

Mr. Aubin, you have six minutes.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Six minutes, that's great.

I will begin with you, Mr. Oliver.

Can you provide a concise comparison of the staff at Montreal-Trudeau airport and at Pearson airport?

12:35 p.m.

A/Commr Joe Oliver

I don't have that information. I can't make that comparison.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Okay.

Can you reassure us that you have the necessary resources to keep up with the increase in aviation traffic at either of these airports?

12:35 p.m.

A/Commr Joe Oliver

You're throwing an open-ended question out here. Obviously, we would always welcome new or additional resources, but the reality is that we have to work in an environment in which sometimes the demand exceeds capacity. We put in place strategies to prioritize our work activity, to identify risk, and to try to risk out as soon as possible those that are low-risk and focus on the high-risk activities.

It's a challenge in policing regardless. It's something we deal with daily, but it's always focused on developing those tools and relationships and accessing information that gives you the ability to make a timely risk assessment and determine whether some particular area deserves some attention and focus.

That's about as well as I can answer your question.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you.

If we wanted to do our own comparison, would it be possible to get figures about the staff?

12:35 p.m.

A/Commr Joe Oliver

In some instances, depending on the type of operation, we do not normally share the number of resources we have in specific locations. I'll have to go back to assess to see what kind of security classification would have been placed on this information.

To clarify, the role of the RCMP at Montreal and Toronto is focused on the federal policing mandate. The police of jurisdiction have the primary response in responding to criminality—that is mainly the local police and the province—as well as responsibility for the arrangements they have made with the airport authority for responding and the service standards around security at the airport. For the RCMP, though, the role is primarily focused on federal mandates, such as international drug trafficking, conspiracies, and those types of things.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Am I to conclude that the agreement you have in place with the Montreal and Toronto police is of the same type for both airports in terms of the sharing of responsibilities?

12:35 p.m.

A/Commr Joe Oliver

Yes. I think it goes to the great work of the airport authorities in bringing the multi-agency committee together as well as of assessing security risks and identifying responses to the broader risks within the airport environment. We're always concerned about internal conspiracies at airports, whether by somebody who is involved in international drug trafficking or someone who may attempt to unlawfully interfere with an aircraft.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you.

Back to you, Ms. Sullivan and Mr. Gooch.

In a previous meeting about aviation safety, the fire service at airports was discussed a great deal. Can you confirm that each of your members has its own fire service? If not, do some airports have to call on the local municipal fire service?

12:35 p.m.

President, Canadian Airports Council

Daniel-Robert Gooch

That's something that varies from community to community and from airport size to airport size. We could certainly follow up with more precise information for the committee.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Perhaps I am new to this, since I am not involved in the daily administration of airports. Or perhaps it is because I am a fan of movies where fire trucks are on the runway every time a plane is about to crash, to scare the audience. Tell me, though, has the role of firefighters at airports changed very much? There are now various threats inside airports for which services must be available.

Has there been an increase in staff or have you simply increased the mandate with the same staff?

12:35 p.m.

President, Canadian Airports Council

Daniel-Robert Gooch

I will ask my colleague, Ms. Sullivan, to answer.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Corporate Safety and Security, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, and Chair of the Security Committee, Canadian Airports Council

Jennifer Sullivan

I think we're looking at two different firefighting services. When we talk about aircraft, aircraft rescue, and firefighting that is responding to an aircraft, that's a very specialized skill set and requires specialized equipment. The mandate for that, the quantity of services as well as the timing of services, is regulated by Transport Canada. That is in regulation.

How can airports choose to deliver that service? They can contract that with their firefighting service of jurisdiction. So, if they're in the city of Richmond, where Vancouver airport is, they can contract with...or bring it in-house as we've done at Pearson.

When it comes to the terminal building, that's structural firefighting so it's a different skill set. Again, airports can either choose to deliver that in-house or leave that to their firefighting service of jurisdiction.

We are mandated, of course, during emergency exercises to continually train and exercise with these agencies if they are providing a service, and the same with ambulance and police force of jurisdiction.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you very much.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Fraser.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I didn't know I was going to have another go-round. I always like the opportunity to get more from the witnesses.

Mr. Gooch, and perhaps Ms. Sullivan, I'll start with you.

There are a couple of themes I wanted to explore along the lines of training innovation. Mr. Gooch, I think you mentioned initially in your remarks that there would be a need for training for security officials. I think, Ms. Sullivan, that you just hinted at it as well with respect to some of the folks dealing with emergencies. I can't help notice the level of automation that is going on in Canadian airports, everything from baggage handling to my scanning my own bag now. To keep up with the times, are there certain areas where we need to be focusing resources to train people to continue to do these jobs at the airport for the next generation?

Specifically it's the ones that have an impact on safety, not just generally at the airport.

12:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Airports Council

Daniel-Robert Gooch

Are you referring to the skilled workforce? We jumped around there so I'm not....

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Absolutely. I'm concerned with disruptive technologies that impact the safety of Canadians at airports. I want to make sure that the people doing the job at the airport have the skills necessary so we're not putting efficiency ahead of safety. Are there certain areas where we should training people who work at airports to keep up with the times and ensure that, despite these new technologies being introduced, we're still offering the safest possible experience?